Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

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_Maksutov
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _Maksutov »

honorentheos wrote:You failed to actually address a single point in the discussion and are confusing dismissing it without argument for actually making an argument. boo hoo for subbie, who doesn't want to consider he's on the wrong side of history attacking those who are concerned with Trump's attack on western liberal democratic values. If that is a hair fire, light me up because an assault on liberal democracy is worthy of more than just a hair fire. Your lack of concern in that regard is noted.


It's subby. He's a troller, not a discusser. He doesn't grasp any of what you're talking about and won't ever bother to. You might want to lower your expectations. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_subgenius
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _subgenius »

honorentheos wrote:You failed to actually address a single point in the discussion and are confusing dismissing it without argument for actually making an argument. boo hoo for subbie, who doesn't want to consider he's on the wrong side of history attacking those who are concerned with Trump's attack on western liberal democratic values. If that is a hair fire, light me up because an assault on liberal democracy is worthy of more than just a hair fire. Your lack of concern in that regard is noted.

again, I don't believe you actually have anything but a cursory understanding of Godwins Law...as manifest in your OP....because all of your so-called "points" are addressed therein.
But we get it, you just want to feel that Trump really is like a Nazi and you're scared because you had a crush on Obama.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _honorentheos »

subgenius wrote:again, I don't believe you actually have anything but a cursory understanding of Godwins Law...as manifest in your opening post....because all of your so-called "points" are addressed therein.
But we get it, you just want to feel that Trump really is like a Nazi and you're scared because you had a crush on Obama.

For the sake of discussion, feel free to point out one specific aspect of Godwin's Law that is not captured in the OP. Obviously given the breadth of my ignorance finding one should be a short exercise for you.
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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Nazi and Commie are the exemplars of ultimate evil on the left and right. (I actually heard a person call someone a 'fascist-communist' once. No doubt the person hurling the insult was a Monarchist-Anarchist.)

There is a place in discussions where weak arguments run out of gas. Rather than take the mental steps to the next logical argument, some people just put out a sign that says Fascist or Communist, indicating their final card has been played. Or in our highly evolved digital world, libtards can now fight conspiritards.

Anyway, it's 1 am and I'm tired, so I' m signing off. Gute Nacht und Heil Hitler, mein volk.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _honorentheos »

MeDotOrg wrote:Nazi and Commie are the exemplars of ultimate evil on the left and right. (I actually heard a person call someone a 'fascist-communist' once. No doubt the person hurling the insult was a Monarchist-Anarchist.)

There is a place in discussions where weak arguments run out of gas. Rather than take the mental steps to the next logical argument, some people just put out a sign that says Fascist or Communist, indicating their final card has been played. Or in our highly evolved digital world, libtards can now fight conspiritards.

Anyway, it's 1 am and I'm tired, so I' m signing off. Gute Nacht und Heil Hitler, mein volk.

Hey MeDotOrg,

I agree that the principle behind Godwin's Law is/was necessary in so far as it forces participants to avoid conversation-ending hyperbole at it's most extreme.

But given unintended consequences tend to arise even from actions with the best intentions and serving real needs, my point is that one almost never sees legitimate comparisons made because it's such an internet taboo. And those consequences seem to include historical amnesia regarding the fact the German people weren't bad people or any different than any of the rest of us. Many conditions came together to make the rise of the Nazi Party possible. And understanding the conditions and mindsets of the common people is, in my opinion, far more important to the long term success of western civilization than regulating hyperbole.

Nazis are the easy and obvious villain that needs no justification in entertainment to kill off by the dozens. It's become a cartoon of evil. And that has the effect of making it seem unreal or something we aren't capable of repeating because we aren't the sort of people who would choose evil over good.

I'm arguing for pushing back the taboo, not to open the door to hyperbole in debate, but to insist that we aren't so different and bring back more of the complexity that is the reality of the past.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Maksutov wrote:
honorentheos wrote:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/06/28/hitlers-rise-it-can-happen-here/

This was shared by a friend on Facebook yesterday. I thought it captured much of the same sentiment.

I recently read They Thought They Were Free. Very disturbing. Many, perhaps most Nazi era Germans sincerely thought Adolf was great. Years after the war, even after the revelations of the Holocaust, they still thought that. If the war and its consequences couldn't convince them of their error.... :eek:

I met a German lady in NC who had come to my home to buy a porch swing I was selling. I have no idea why she brought up WW2 and the Holocaust, maybe because we were talking about our respective armies, but felt comfortable enough with me to share her thoughts on Hitler. She felt he was maligned and the war was a defensive one in nature. I was clearly uncomfortable, and let her know I disagreed with her various positions. She proceeded to lecture me on Jews, the media, and why I needed to seek out alternative information sources.

Believe you me Godwin's Law may dilute the reality of Nazis, but there are fascists a plenty floating around out there. Weird.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Maksutov
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _Maksutov »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Maksutov wrote:I recently read They Thought They Were Free. Very disturbing. Many, perhaps most Nazi era Germans sincerely thought Adolf was great. Years after the war, even after the revelations of the Holocaust, they still thought that. If the war and its consequences couldn't convince them of their error.... :eek:

I met a German lady in North Carolina who had come to my home to buy a porch swing I was selling. I have no idea why she brought up WW2 and the Holocaust, maybe because we were talking about our respective armies, but felt comfortable enough with me to share her thoughts on Hitler. She felt he was maligned and the war was a defensive one in nature. I was clearly uncomfortable, and let her know I disagreed with her various positions. She proceeded to lecture me on Jews, the media, and why I needed to seek out alternative information sources.

Believe you me Godwin's Law may dilute the reality of Nazis, but there are fascists a plenty floating around out there. Weird.

- Doc

Look into William Dudley Pelley. Most of the American white/right movements except the Klan descended from him. He was big in the 1930s. A crazy MoFo who is still revered.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EAllusion
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _EAllusion »

Godwin's law was just a humorous observation that the longer online discussions go on, the more likely someone is to bring in a Nazi analogy. The funny part about this, besides it being true, is that everyone in such discussions has had experience with Nazi's being used in a lazy or hyperbolic way to attack something far less serious.

Godwin said himself that doesn't mean there aren't circumstances where ideas truly are Nazi-like or would defend what the Nazi's did and it is worth pointing this out.

People would refer to Godwin's law in the context of saying that if you were the one who brought up Nazis, there's a good chance you are losing the argument and are relying on exaggeration where sound explanation has failed you.

MADB, via Juliann, had a bizarre interpretation that "Godwin's law" meant that if you compare anything, literally anything, to the Nazis then you've lost the argument and this justifies censoring you. She misunderstood what the word "law" meant in that phrase and thought it was a rule about appropriate communication. MADB would invoke it in circumstances where bringing up Nazis was an obvious and appropriate response. But that's unique to this quirky corner in the niche world of online LDS apologia.

For what it is worth, Mike Godwin himself has gone on record imploring people to compare contemporary people in American politics - see if you can guess which ones - to Nazis:

https://Twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/8 ... 9634232320
_Some Schmo
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _Some Schmo »

EAllusion wrote:MADB, via Juliann, had a bizarre interpretation that "Godwin's law" mean that if you compare anything, literally anything, to the Nazis then you've lost the argument and this justifies censoring you. She misunderstood what the word "law" meant in that phrase and thought it was a rule about appropriate communication. MADB would invoke it in circumstances where bringing up Nazis was an obvious and appropriate response. But that's unique to this quirky corner in the niche world of online LDS apologia.

Holy crap, it's been a long time since I thought about this, but yeah, I remember.

It seems to me holding children apart from their parents in cages based solely on their race is pretty damn Nazi-ish. Gee... I wonder why their aren't similar detention centers filled with separated Canadian kids at the northern boarder.
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_Quasimodo
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Re: Godwin's Law...Should It Be Reconsidered?

Post by _Quasimodo »

Some Schmo wrote:
It seems to me holding children apart from their parents in cages based solely on their race is pretty damn Nazi-ish. Gee... I wonder why their aren't similar detention centers filled with separated Canadian kids at the northern boarder.


It may be because no Canadians have any interest in coming to the US theses days. Who could blame them?
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