Having the Body of Democracy, but Not Its Soul

[_Some Schmo]

I still think secession would be better for both sides.

How do you imagine this working? Where would everyone live? You just expect all Republicans to move to rural areas and Dems to move to the coasts?

And where do independents go?

[_schreech]

how far down do we have to drill before we hit foundational priorities grounded in our shared citizenship?

But Hannity did say we need to come together. I'm just not sure how that's possible. I still think secession would be better for both sides.

The sad meaningless life of an unashamed racist. You do realize that other people have suggested we need to come together before the tools on the entertainment channels you look to for “news” and reasons to be outraged said it, right? No wonder you haven’t moved beyond judging people by their skin color, you openly choose ignorance.

Lol. “But hannity did say” says everything anyone would ever need to know about you.

[_honorentheos]

Another one that isn't tied to any particular news event but rather raises questions about the condition of our democracy.

[_Some Schmo]

If you want an honest, civil conversation from a Drumpf supporter, you're going to have to wait for Drumpf to either grow up or die.

Honorentheos, what do you think after reading this?

I forgot about writing this, but it seems as accurate as ever.

As we've seen in this forum, nobody can defend Trump honestly. You must lie (most likely to yourself) to make him seem like a decent human being, or to claim he cares about anyone but himself.

I notice ajax made no effort to dispute this claim.

[_honorentheos]

Schmo, Trump is more than the racial issue. His support is based on economic realities affecting millions of American and while it may seem difficult to do given the glaring racism he evokes, he isn't defeated by simply turning race into a poltical weapon. As noted in another thread, that's having a counter effect of reducing sensitivity to racial prejudice as it turns it into a Dem v Rep. political issue rather than a matter of simple human rights. It becomes self fulfilling as fewer conservatives find commone cause with the way race is becoming the only note screamed loudly and start to become desensitized to the underlying and very real issues it started from. Fewer people start to view the use of the n-word as racist as it become the natural counter to those who would throw charges of racism out as the ultimate game ending move. Denying it has substance as an argument become the inevitable counter. It's damaging not helping.

If the opponents of what Trump represents can't do more than reduce Trump to a candidate of the far right, it won't do anything for proving his attacks on the institutions of democracy are universally bad. They become another aspect of liberal outrage. And liberal outrage is simply not a vision for a better future people can believe in. So how is that helping to reduce the entirety of our political needs to Trump is a lying racist? Liberals are lying socialists. Hurray, we've achieved political stalemate and reaffirmed it's all a bunch of BS run by BS artists. Might as well let it all go down the drain anyway...

[_Some Schmo]

So how is that helping to reduce the entirety of our political needs to Trump is a lying racist?

Who's doing that?

That wouldn't be the same as pointing out that Trump has nobody's interests in mind but his own, and the only shot at meeting American interests is by removing him from office.

Of course Trump's a symptom of larger problems. Of course there's more to his lack of fitness than just his racism. It's still ok to say, hey, I'm one of those people who is really disgusted by how he represents America on a daily basis, and I'm going to say so.

Does it help? Who knows? It's true, so it seems like a good idea. I think it's much worse to treat him as though he's just a regular politician.

And by the way, I don't have liberal interests at heart. It is in no way a Dem vs Repub thing for me. It's a reality vs BS thing. I have American interests at heart.

[_honorentheos]

Lots of things are true. The participants here are largely in agreement Trump sucks. So, is that the intent? Use subbie and Ajax for punching bags by reducing conservative pro-Trumo posters to the owners of all things Trump and wail on them for sport? Or if you have something more to say that may be more complicated than just stating stuff you know is true, why not choose that to post instead?

I mean, last I checked the world wasn't so black and white and issues are complex so the solutions don't seem obvious. Seems like that needs a bit of thought and work to get sorted.

[_Some Schmo]

Lots of things are true. The participants here are largely in agreement Trump sucks. So, is that the intent? Use subbie and Ajax for punching bags by reducing conservative pro-Trumo posters to the owners of all things Trump and wail on them for sport?

Hmmm... you misunderstand me. I am not limiting my disdain to just the handful of Trump lemmings that post here. They just happen to be the readily accessible examples.

Or if you have something more to say that may be more complicated than just stating stuff you know is true, why not choose that to post instead?

Hey man, don't you sometimes see something and just want to yell "“F”!" to get it out of your system?

That would account for maybe 80% of my posts here. I plead guilty.

I mean, last I checked the world wasn't so black and white and issues are complex so the solutions don't seem obvious. Seems like that needs a bit of thought and work to get sorted.

Yes, the issues are very complex, but there's no discussing the issues when we can't agree on the underlying premises. The country doesn't even seem to agree that facts matter! So yeah, I feel a little bit of hopelessness when it comes to this subject, and I end up bitching about it a lot.

[_honorentheos]

Hey Schmo, I thought a bit about your post and completely understand needing an outlet for venting. I'm not sure if I misunderstand or not, but it does seem like Ajax and subbie act as effigies for the broad swath of Trump supporters. So maybe I misunderstood, perhaps not.

Anyway, I think I'm getting board of the board. I am probably misremembering but I felt like participating here often provided insights or added some depth to what was often normally out there in the media. And the dust ups that occured brought out better arguments for and against issues than I often found in the regular outlets. But I don't feel that often now.

So, it seems to me that everyone thinks they have a good handle on the truth and those who disagree are just wrong and not interested in facts so it isn't worth engaging anymore. But that generally contributes to an environment that doesn't seem to elevate much anymore. Trump hasn't been good for us in ways I wouldn't have predicted.

[_Some Schmo]

Anyway, I think I'm getting board of the board. I am probably misremembering but I felt like participating here often provided insights or added some depth to what was often normally out there in the media. And the dust ups that occured brought out better arguments for and against issues than I often found in the regular outlets. But I don't feel that often now.

Well, I think part of it is we're a fairly small group and we all seem to know where everyone else stands on most stuff. The same subjects have been hashed out quite a few times.

And I think Spirit Paradise is currently having a lull.

So, it seems to me that everyone thinks they have a good handle on the truth and those who disagree are just wrong and not interested in facts so it isn't worth engaging anymore. But that generally contributes to an environment that doesn't seem to elevate much anymore. Trump hasn't been good for us in ways I wouldn't have predicted.

There's a lot of truth to this.

But in some ways, internet communication has always had this flavor. The increased polarization in the country is exacerbating it, probably, but people fighting irrationally online has been a thing since internet chats were invented.

It's a rare thing when I feel moved to try to convince somebody of something online. I don't see the point. I'd rather stick to commentary; it's less restrictive. This is kind of my online diary. I think I'm a more persuasive speaker than writer anyway.