Ukraine cut off cooperation with the Mueller investigation

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_Themis
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Re: Ukraine cut off cooperation with the Mueller investigati

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:
Themis wrote:Subby is just trying to say everyone does it so it's ok if Trump does it to get away with corruption and cheating in the last election. He doesn't back up his assertion, but it's interesting that his assertion is an admission that he knows Trump is guilty.

You don't back up your assertion that Trump cheated, so why should I? clearly this is the don't have to back up assertions thread.....CFR and thus be labeled a troll my friend.


Your post was the admission Trump cheated, which was not the assertion I said you were not backing up. That assertion is that everyone does it, so it's fine that Trump is. :lol:
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_honorentheos
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Re: Ukraine cut off cooperation with the Mueller investigati

Post by _honorentheos »

subgenius wrote:
Themis wrote:Subby is just trying to say everyone does it so it's ok if Trump does it to get away with corruption and cheating in the last election. He doesn't back up his assertion, but it's interesting that his assertion is an admission that he knows Trump is guilty.

You don't back up your assertion that Trump cheated, so why should I? clearly this is the don't have to back up assertions thread.....CFR and thus be labeled a troll my friend.

But to my point, no, I am not saying that the vast and blatant historical precedence for mankind participating in "arms bribery" justifies Trump's whatever or does not justify Trump's whatever...clearly I was noting that the poster was posting in a manner oblivious to this fact (which is readily understood even by a cursory knowledge of world history).

Or maybe I do not understand what the poster is protesting? so much hair and so much fire makes it difficult to understand what yo guys are upset about....i can't find the facts through all the smoke that these types of posts are casting off.

Subbie -

The reporting quotes high level sources in Ukraine including the motive as to why they are choosing to not cooperate with the Mueller investigation of Paul Manafort's work there on the behalf of their former and corrupt President. So it can't be that your problem is with the information.

Now normally when the US, usually through the CIA and surrogates, goes about arming the world as the biggest international arms dealer there is ostensibly a higher purpose that aligns with American foreign policy. And don't you know, arming Ukraine in it's fight for maintaining its independence from Russia seems to align with American foreign policy and interests. But oddly, not with the Republican platform presented at the convention where the plank was removed through request from the Trump campaign.

So...we have reporting that US arms have strings attached that form an apparent quid pro quo that trades American foreign policy interests for protection of Trump's inner circle.

Does that help clear up your confusion?
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_subgenius
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Re: Ukraine cut off cooperation with the Mueller investigati

Post by _subgenius »

honorentheos wrote:Subbie -

The reporting quotes high level sources in Ukraine including the motive as to why they are choosing to not cooperate with the Mueller investigation of Paul Manafort's work there on the behalf of their former and corrupt President. So it can't be that your problem is with the information.

I had no problem with that information, because I am not the one conflating that information with the motivations of the White House. The Ukraine's statement towards their own motive does not prove or even indicate that there was election cheating. So, perhaps it is the information that your should focus upon.

honorentheos wrote:Now normally when the US, usually through the CIA and surrogates, goes about arming the world as the biggest international arms dealer there is ostensibly a higher purpose that aligns with American foreign policy.

Normally? ok, given that you concede this behavior as normal....do you not agree that you are simply confirming my post's statement of - "your assertion of this seems rather naïve (and politically convenient) in the context of world history, american history, and the fundamental working of mankind and societies." ?
Just because you are "assuming" that the deal was nefarious does not mean that it was...The rather ambiguous and cursory motive noted by Ukraine is hardly being put forth as the reason for the sale...the information and timeline does not align with such a conclusion.


honorentheos wrote: And don't you know, arming Ukraine in it's fight for maintaining its independence from Russia seems to align with American foreign policy and interests. But oddly, not with the Republican platform presented at the convention where the plank was removed through request from the Trump campaign.

CFR...and also provide some sort of justification whereas a President never deviates from his own party's platform.

honorentheos wrote:So...we have reporting that US arms have strings attached that form an apparent quid pro quo that trades American foreign policy interests for protection of Trump's inner circle.

but that is just the thing...there are no strings attached...there is no proof, evidence, or reasonable inkling that this was quid pro quo...in fact, the information notes just the opposite....literally fromn the OP citation - "Ukrainian politicians, he said, concluded on their own that any help prosecuting Mr. Manafort could bring down Mr. Trump’s wrath."
(spoiler alert: conjecture doth not a quid-pro-quo make)...and please, spare us the "i know what is really going on" exclamations, because ya don't.

honorentheos wrote:Does that help clear up your confusion?

I am not confused my friend, but perhaps you should check your own information.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Ukraine cut off cooperation with the Mueller investigati

Post by _honorentheos »

subgenius wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Subbie -

The reporting quotes high level sources in Ukraine including the motive as to why they are choosing to not cooperate with the Mueller investigation of Paul Manafort's work there on the behalf of their former and corrupt President. So it can't be that your problem is with the information.

I had no problem with that information, because I am not the one conflating that information with the motivations of the White House. The Ukraine's statement towards their own motive does not prove or even indicate that there was election cheating. So, perhaps it is the information that your should focus upon.

The Ukraine's statement towards their own motive does not prove or even indicate that there was election cheating.
Weren't you the guy who used to overuse "hit dog hollers" until you moved on to hair fire? Since the discussion was about the undisputed fact that Manafort was working for the former President of Ukraine, your inserting election cheating into the discussion is an interesting choice.

honorentheos wrote:Now normally when the US, usually through the CIA and surrogates, goes about arming the world as the biggest international arms dealer there is ostensibly a higher purpose that aligns with American foreign policy.

Normally? ok, given that you concede this behavior as normal....do you not agree that you are simply confirming my post's statement of - "your assertion of this seems rather naïve (and politically convenient) in the context of world history, american history, and the fundamental working of mankind and societies." ?
Just because you are "assuming" that the deal was nefarious does not mean that it was...The rather ambiguous and cursory motive noted by Ukraine is hardly being put forth as the reason for the sale...the information and timeline does not align with such a conclusion.

I never disputed the fact the US is the largest arms dealer in the world. And we often provide/sell arms to forces with whom we share common cause.

What makes this different isn't that the US is selling arms to Ukraine in their fight against attempted Russian occupation. It's that a) the Republican platform was specifically modified in 2016 to take out the arming of Ukraine at the behest of the Trump team, and b) the selling of arms to the Ukraine is clearly understood as conditional on the part of the Ukraine.

That makes it a quid pro quo. I know you want some kind of CFR, are an HR nightmare with a crap understanding of what constitutes a quid pro quo, and probably don't actually care but are just being an ass because you view liberals v. conservatives as some cosmic war between good and evil. But that's muddying the water. Ukraine having a weapons deal with the US that includes their avoiding upsetting the Trump White House should be concerning to any normal person concerned with the health of the Republic. That it led to their becoming non-cooperative in an ongoing legal investigation that includes said Trump White House isn't healthy behavior. But being concerned about that probably only includes people who aren't locked in a fantasy war against their own fellow citizens.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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