Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

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_Gunnar
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Gunnar »

Xenophon wrote:I oppose the death penalty mostly because of the inaccuracies within our current justice systems. There are far too many instances of wrong convictions for me to be comfortable with the idea of executing someone. I also suspect that even if the justice system was 100% accurate, guaranteed, we would probably still over-apply the death penalty but that may just be indicative of my experience as a Southerner.

As MeDotOrg points out, rehabilitation should obviously be the first and foremost goal.

To the idea of "Life in prison is far worst than the death penalty". I think that is belied by the fact that a fair portion of death-row inmates spend the majority of their time trying to get off death-row and serve life sentences. If it is the punishment one opts into, I don't see how it could be considered "more severe" (masochists aside). Even behind bars, being alive is a favorable condition to death, IMHO.

I agree with that 100%. Due to the fallibility of human reason and memory, it is estimated that as many as 10% of the inmates on death row at any one time are innocent of the capital crime of which the juries found them guilty. Some legal experts consider this a conservative estimate. Most people have heard of cases where convicted murderers were found to be innocent due to new evidence or careful re-examination of the original evidence, sometimes within days or even hours of their scheduled execution, Can there be any reasonable doubt that some have been unjustly executed! I don't care how rare such wrongful executions are. If it can happen even once in a thousand years, that is enough to make me unalterably opposed to capital punishment! There is no way you can recompense a falsely convicted innocent after the execution has already occurred. As far as I am concerned, this one argument against capital punishment trumps any conceivable argument in favor of it!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Markk
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Markk »

Morley wrote:
Markk wrote:I worked with a middle eastern guy years ago, and I asked him how they would handle a convicted murderer...I think is was during the OJ trial or similar...he said “Mark (roll the R) a bullet it is 25 cents.”


You've got to be kidding me, Markk. You say "a middle eastern guy" like that points to some common culture or set of attitudes. Was he Turkish, a Kurd, perhaps an Ashkenazi Jew, or a Saudi, maybe an Albanian Christian, or a Cypriot Greek, a Parsi from Iran, Jordanian, Lebanese, or God knows what. Ajax, frikin' Ajax, is showing more nuance and cultural awareness than you are.


If you want to know just ask, he is a Palestinian. He is of Middle Eastern decent, which in loose general terms is, "a middle eastern guy." I have not problem saying that, nor would I think he would care.

LOL...If you want to find something to fault with me about, I would hope you could do better than that, after all I am a Independent Conservative redneck Evangelical Christian, on a mainly atheistic liberal democratic board, who's very existence goes again the grain of the status quo here. I know you can do better that this Morely.


Here research this ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... rn_descent

by the way...what is wrong with Ajax, right or wrong, whether you agree or disagree, his arguments are thought out.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Markk wrote:
The guy wouldn't stand a chance in general population...he will be in isolation for the rest of his life, whether death by injection or of old age in a cell.

I think the parents and families of the kids and teachers that lost loved ones should decide, and I would be good with either decision.

I understand that it could never happen here, but I think that would be the best solution. Who could blame the family member for any decision they made.


I couldn't blame a family member for their decision about the fate of one who destroyed their lives. However, that is entirely the reason that victims don't decide fate.

This young man was adopted at an early age, diagnosed with autism and I don't know what all else. He lost his adoptive father to death and last November he lost his adoptive mother to death.

He was abandoned once again, dealing with mental health issues and none of us know if he had anyone to partner with him during his struggles with mental health and grief. Did he have someone to go to help? Or was he primarily ignored? There is one recorded instance where he explained to LE himself that he lost his mother and was struggling. He knew and was aware of that, did he have the awareness needed to seek help and if so, did he reject it?

There but for the grace of God, go every single one of us, Mark.

Before this day is over, you could be confronted with a situation that traumatized you and derailed your mental health for a lengthy period of time into the future. You might even do harm to another person while you are in treatment with therapy and medication shifts.

Would you want your fate to be decided by the victim or victim's family of your behaviors, or would you want to receive a credible evaluation and judgement via the court system?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

Markk wrote:LOL...If you want to find something to fault with me about, I would hope you could do better than that, after all I am a Independent Conservative redneck Evangelical Christian, on a mainly atheistic liberal democratic board, who's very existence goes again the grain of the status quo here. I know you can do better that this Morely.



Oh, I already have.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=1113968#p1113968
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

Markk wrote:by the way...what is wrong with Ajax, right or wrong, whether you agree or disagree, his arguments are thought out.


Please link to some.
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

ajax18 wrote:Don't some middle eastern cultures allow the victims families to take vengeance? They also get to choose the method of execution.

Markk wrote:I worked with a middle eastern guy years ago, and I asked him how they would handle a convicted murderer...I think is was during the OJ trial or similar...he said “Mark (roll the R) a bullet it is 25 cents.”

Morley wrote:You've got to be kidding me, Markk. You say "a middle eastern guy" like that points to some common culture or set of attitudes. Was he Turkish, a Kurd, perhaps an Ashkenazi Jew, or a Saudi, maybe an Albanian Christian, or a Cypriot Greek, a Parsi from Iran, Jordanian, Lebanese, or God knows what. Ajax, frikin' Ajax, is showing more nuance and cultural awareness than you are.

Markk wrote:If you want to know just ask, he is a Palestinian. He is of Middle Eastern decent, which in loose general terms is, "a middle eastern guy." I have not problem saying that, nor would I think he would care.


It's the implication that Near Eastern cultures are all the same that's grating.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

Apologies for the derail. Please continue.
_Markk
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Markk »

Morley wrote:

It's the implication that Near Eastern cultures are all the same that's grating.


No it's not...why...do you believe it is wrong to be of Middle Eastern decent. I could care less if someone call me a North American guy. KG married a South American woman...is that grating, why and to whom?

Your view of Middle Eastern heritage is apparently different than mine.

Is it wrong for me to say someone is Asian? I had lunch with a Asian co-worker and good friend yesterday, is something wrong with that in proper context?

Middle Eastern Law is swift for the very most part, which I respect for many reasons...and my point to this thread had it's place, and if you think it is unpleasant, then that is your problem.

You were just looking for a reason to bash me, not contributing to the context of the thread.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

Morley wrote:It's the implication that Near Eastern cultures are all the same that's grating.

Markk wrote:No it's not...


Yeah, it is. Near East cultures are very different from one another. For you to suggest they're the same is a mistaken stereotype.

Markk wrote:why...do you believe it is wrong to be of Middle Eastern decent. I could care less if someone call me a North American guy. KG married a South American woman...is that grating, why and to whom?


How could it be wrong to be of Mid East descent? Where did I suggest that?

Markk wrote:Your view of Middle Eastern heritage is apparently different than mine.


It almost certainly is. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Mid East. I've been to eight or nine countries in the area. I have friends and relatives who still live there. My wife is Persian.

Markk wrote:Is it wrong for me to say someone is Asian? I had lunch with a Asian co-worker and good friend yesterday, is something wrong with that in proper context?


Nope. However, if you were suggest that all Asian cultures were alike in some essential way that is so extremely different from us, there might be something wrong with that.

Markk wrote:Middle Eastern Law is swift for the very most part, which I respect for many reasons...and my point to this thread had it's place, and if you think it is unpleasant, then that is your problem.


You're doing it, again. No, Middle Eastern law isn't "swift for the very most part." People have been known to languish in Iranian and Saudi prisons for years without ever really being charged with a crime. Both civil and Sharia law are different in different counties. Ajax alluded to this when he referred to families taking vengeance in "some middle eastern cultures."

Markk wrote:You were just looking for a reason to bash me, not contributing to the context of the thread.


No, I wasn't. I don't care that you're a self-styled conservative, Evangelical redneck. You're taking personally something that was directed at your faulty rhetoric. Make a decent argument and I'll back you every time.
_Gunnar
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Gunnar »

Here is a prime example of why capital punishment should be abolished once and for all: George Stinney, 14, Executed In Vile Act Of Injustice, Exonerated 70s Years Late
"Calling it a “great and fundamental injustice,” a South Carolina judge on Wednesday vacated the 1944 murder conviction of 14-year-old George J. Stinney Jr., the youngest person executed in the United States in the last century.

Judge Carmen T. Mullen of Circuit Court did not rule that the conviction of Mr. Stinney for the murder of two white girls in the town of Alcolu was wrong on the merits. She did find, however, that the prosecution had failed in numerous ways to safeguard the constitutional rights of Mr. Stinney, who was black, from the time he was taken into custody until his death by electrocution.

The all-white jury could not be considered a jury of the teenager’s peers, Judge Mullen ruled, and his court-appointed attorney did “little to nothing” to defend him. His confession was most likely coerced and unreliable, she added, “due to the power differential between his position as a 14-year-old black male apprehended and questioned by white, uniformed law enforcement in a small, segregated mill town in South Carolina.”"* The Young Turks hosts Cenk Uygur breaks it down.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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