Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

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_MeDotOrg
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Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _MeDotOrg »

I knew I wanted to see this series, so I bit the bullet and bought it. I've been watching the 10 discs over the last week.

I still think Ken Burn's The Civil War is one of the great TV documentaries, and I think Vietnam is, in some ways, better. On the technical front, I think there is great sound editing and mixing. A lot of scenes have the subtle thwop-thwop of helicopter blades turning, accompanied by a low bass or organ note, adding a little edge to the scene. Also, this guy must pay next to zero for music rights. Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Beatles, Rolling Stones, and Ray Charles singing "America", the series is loaded with music.

My brother was a 17-year old Marine grunt in Vietnam in 1966. He was a radio operator. He used to tell me that half the time when he called in air support, they ended up bombing their own troops. After watching the documentary, I understood why. The Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese knew that the way to escape being bombed was to engage the Americans at close quarters, so that they couldn't call in air support. So a lot of the fighting was incredibly vicious and intense, at very close quarters.

The historical perspective is a hard lesson in American history. If I had to sum up the Americans mistakes in Vietnam with one word it would be hubris. Now hubris means arrogance, but the Greeks called hubris which led to the defiance of the Gods. War has been called a way that God teaches law to kings. The hubris of the United States in Vietnam was the belief that we could win a war with American firepower. The United States military was built to fight in military formations against other military formations. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong had no interest in fighting that way, and moving in areas with large jungle canopies that rendered air support ineffective. There were no real front lines in the War. A hill would be fought over, hundreds of casualties on both sides. The Viet Cong would slip away, the Americans would take the hill, and then abandon it. You could push the VC out of an area, but when they left they melted away.

The other misreading of the war in Vietnam was to separate the Communists from National Liberation. In 1945, Ho Chi Minh read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence. It began with these words:

All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.


Sound familiar? But in the mindset of Americans in the cold war, Communism could not be a legitimate expression of National Liberation. After the United States 'lost' China to the Communists, each American President did not be the President to 'lose' Vietnam. When a trickle of advisers grew to 550,000 troops in country, the war seemed to closer to being won than before. But at each step along the way, the Presidents kept thinking that if they put in a little bit more, the Vietnamese would fold. But each time they raised, the Vietnamese called their raise.

Could the United States have won in Vietnam? Given the same political history, I would paraphrase what an American said about a Vietnamese village, that we had to destroy it in order to save it. The experience of an American soldier walking into a village in Vietnam: They know who you are. You have no idea who they are. You don't know the customs. People are terrified. Do they run because they're going to tell the VC or are they running because they are afraid? It's your life if you guess wrong. The metric the Americans used to show they were winning in a war without front lines was body counts. So if you killed someone, they became an enemy combatant. Bigger body count. On one of my brother's first patrols, they saw a man running away from them. Someone shot him in the back, rolled him over and put his cigarette out on his tongue. Welcome to the Marines.

The combat scenes in Vietnam really convey the terror of close quarter jungle fighting. And there are interviews with North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, South Vietnamese (ARVN) and Americans, so you get perspectives from all sides of battle. It was the closest I'll probably come to having an inkling of what my brother went through. Like most Vets, he would not talk about his experiences, saying 'I did things for which I'll never forgive myself".

My brother spent his life running from the things that he did and were done to him in Vietnam. He came back from the War a heroin addict. He sobered up in the last year of his life in 1988, but too much damage had been done to his body. He died of liver failure.

I was 3 years younger, and by my 18th birthday we had 3 more years of history as well as my brothers personal experience. I remember writing a paper against the war in 10th grade. I marched against the war, and manned a table during the Moratorium. My father paid for a draft doctor and lawyer. I got out on a 4F psychological deferment. So yes, I'm a draft dodger. The Vietnam was like the Civil war in that respect, but it never changed my relationship with my brother. I knew why he went, and he knew why I didn't. I can live with my own decision to have not joined the military. I think it was the right thing to do, and if I had to do it over I think I would pretty much behave the same way. Still, there is always a part of me that feels guilty. Somebody else's brother went instead of me. And for me, there is another thing, I would imagine that most boys and men wonder the same thing: How would I hold up? Could I make it though the experience? Thankfully it is a question that most young men do not have to answer.

Perhaps this is my perspective, but I think many of the fissures between Liberal and Conservative in the country began as Hawks (America: Love it or Leave it) or Doves (America: Change it or lose it). The Vietnam War was a deep scar in this nation's history. It was a defeat, and Americans don't like defeat. And tens of thousands Americans died because we were too proud to admit defeat, to admit that this country could not impose its will on another country.

Anyway, I highly recommend the Ken Burns documentary. See it if you have the chance.
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
- Will Durant
"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
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_Markk
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _Markk »

Thanks for the post. I missed having to go by about 4 or 5 years. My two older brothers served, and one also came home with a drug problem, and actually just a few years ago finally kicked hepatitis he received from dirty needles. My other brothers best friend (Fred) was a medic, who was killed by friendly fire just two months in country. They told his parents that he was killed by enemy small arms fire, but my brother went to see his unit when he was there, and heard the truth that it was friendly fire that killed his friend. He never told Fred's parents and brothers, and I think that has taken a toll on him to this day.

My oldest brother will tell you story after story, and is a "proud vet", while my other brother, after all these years, finally opened up to me (a little) of what he did and saw.

Wars cannot be won without the will to win, and maybe more so the necessity to win...and in Vietnam we had neither.

As a teenager, and in tradition of my father serving in WW2 and my two older brothers serving in Nam...I deeply wanted to serve, and perhaps regret foolishly in many ways today I could not. War is a strange thing, it can be very luring to many of us...yet in all reality the worse of all choices. Many war time vets will tell you that it was hell, but that it was the best times of their life in many ways, even with the demons...go figure.

I look forward to seeing Burns documentary. by the way, I loved his on baseball also.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Gunnar
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _Gunnar »

MeDotOrg wrote:The other misreading of the war in Vietnam was to separate the Communists from National Liberation. In 1945, Ho Chi Minh read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence. It began with these words:



All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.


Sound familiar? But in the mindset of Americans in the cold war, Communism could not be a legitimate expression of National Liberation. After the United States 'lost' China to the Communists, each American President did not be the President to 'lose' Vietnam. When a trickle of advisers grew to 550,000 troops in country, the war seemed to closer to being won than before. But at each step along the way, the Presidents kept thinking that if they put in a little bit more, the Vietnamese would fold. But each time they raised, the Vietnamese called their raise.

Could the United States have won in Vietnam? Given the same political history, I would paraphrase what an American said about a Vietnamese village, that we had to destroy it in order to save it. The experience of an American soldier walking into a village in Vietnam: They know who you are. You have no idea who they are. You don't know the customs. People are terrified. Do they run because they're going to tell the VC or are they running because they are afraid? It's your life if you guess wrong. The metric the Americans used to show they were winning in a war without front lines was body counts. So if you killed someone, they became an enemy combatant. Bigger body count. On one of my brother's first patrols, they saw a man running away from them. Someone shot him in the back, rolled him over and put his cigarette out on his tongue. Welcome to the Marines.

The biggest beef and disappointment I have with my country is its hypocritical foreign policies that tend to favor what is best for American business interests over what is best for the citizens of other countries. There is justifiable outrage over the way Russia has allegedly interfered with our last presidential election to their own benefit, but what we have done to other countries has too often been far worse. For examples: Claiming anti-communism as an excuse, our CIA has engineered and supported coups that overturned legitimately and freely elected governments in Iran, Guatemala and Chile only to replace them with governments that were more despotic and evil than the governments they replaced, all supposedly in the name of anti-communism, but actually more to serve powerful and influential American business interests.

In the case of Allende, he was undeniably a Communist by persuasion, but the fact remains that he was genuinely the choice of the majority of the Chilean electorate, while Pinochet was a brutal, murderous tyrant. If communism had not worked out well for the Chilean people (which is likely), he could easily have been voted out again by the same democratic process by which he was voted in. Allende posed no serious threat to the people of the USA and their way of life, despite the claims of our government. The fact that he happened to be Communist should not have been more important to us than the fact that he was freely and honestly elected to office by the choice of Chileans, who had the only legitimate say in who was to govern them.

Of the two choices: Hawks (America: Love it or Leave it) or Doves (America: Change it or lose it), I think the latter is more genuinely patriotic given the current state of our nation.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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_Gunnar
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _Gunnar »

In the case of Vietnam, I think the USA would have done better to favor the Vietnamese people's desire for independence from French colonial rule, rather than the French desire to maintain that rule. Before he became a communist, Ho Chi Minh appealed to the American Government to speak out for the case of Vietnamese independence from French colonial rule. Had we not rebuffed him, he likely would not have had to turn to the USSR for help, and might not even have become a Communist.
In 1918 Ho lived in Paris. During the talks that led to the Treaty of Versailles, Ho tried to convince the American delegation to speak out for the cause of the Indo-Chinese people but he was not successful. While in Paris, Ho converted to communism after spending his time reading the works of Karl Marx. Ho became one of the founder members of the French Communist Party – founded in December 1920. In 1924, he visited Russia and while in Moscow he wrote to a friend that all communists were duty bound to return to their country of origin. They had to “make contact with the masses to awaken, organise, unite and train them, and lead them to fight for freedom and independence.”

Even if he had become a Communist anyway, his desire for Vietnamese independence from French rule was just, and even as a Communist country, Vietnam would have owed a debt of gratitude to the USA had we supported their aspirations for independence. Even as a Communist country, wouldn't it be better if it were friendly to us than an enemy? After all, the USSR was our ally during WWII. I don't think we need fear a country merely because it has a socialist or communist style of government if that government is freely and honestly elected by the majority choice of its people, and it has no aspirations to spread Communism by military force or violence beyond its borders to other countries whose people prefer another style of government or economic system. If a communistic country is unable to compete with or keep up with capitalistic style governments in the world marketplace, it will eventually fail and be forced to abandon communism. If proves able to compete or out compete non communist governments, then it behooves the rest of us to study and perhaps emulate what they are doing right.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_The CCC
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _The CCC »

It was really different world from the world we live in today. The US originally supported the French in Indochina maybe because of the fight against Imperial Japan, and the French rubber trade, and despite its brutal suppression of the Vietnamese. Kennedy appears to have wanted a way out, but President Diem was also a tyrant and he was fighting the Communists. The murder of Diem by his military ended that way out. Kennedy sent in thousands more of US Military advisors. Which started our long descent into madness. Johnson raised US personnel to about half a million to keep the US from loosing Vietnam as well as China. Vietnam consumed him. Nixon colluded with the South Vietnamese government to continue the war until after he was elected. When he assured them a "better deal" if he did win. He had no "secret plan", and the war and Watergate consumed him. Ford pardoned Nixon, Carter pardoned the Draft Dodgers, and we forgave and forgot the mistakes of Vietnam.
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _huckelberry »

"ten discs"
I watched on television, I did not think I missed any but ten discs sounds longer than what I saw. Do you know if the whole was broadcast?

I was interested in hearing the others sides reflections. I think there was a bit more inside comments about Nixons reflections. Several conflicts were presented in more detail.

I am left with the same uncertainties as ......... America screwed up big time not preventing the French from retaking the place after wwII, Keeping them out would have saved a gawdawful lot of suffering. But who saw that then? international affairs would be easier with an accurate crystal ball.

Not to long ago I had some discussion with a fellow who was over there for several years prior to 1968. He believes we could have won except for Johnson meddling in military planning. Just occupy Hanoi and eastern Cambodia. I decided not to argue with him but did not get any clear picture how many decades he proposed to invest in those occupations.

He also had a story of being spit upon upon return to California. He gave the spitter a sharp rap on the nose landing him on the floor. Now I have a friend, intensely against the war, who feels sure the stories of attacks on returning GI are urban legend expressing the hostilities of the time. I do not remember anybody whom I thought would spit on a GI . I , we , knew GIs and could only sympathize with them. (unless they were insulting and threatening) Ken Burns found a woman who appeared to confess to such assaults. Perhaps so , sometimes I then thought that everybody was starting to loose all good sense.
_MeDotOrg
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _MeDotOrg »

huckelberry wrote:"ten discs"
I watched on television, I did not think I missed any but ten discs sounds longer than what I saw. Do you know if the whole was broadcast?

Not sure about that.
huckelberry wrote:He also had a story of being spit upon upon return to California. He gave the spitter a sharp rap on the nose landing him on the floor. Now I have a friend, intensely against the war, who feels sure the stories of attacks on returning GI are urban legend expressing the hostilities of the time. I do not remember anybody whom I thought would spit on a GI . I , we , knew GIs and could only sympathize with them. (unless they were insulting and threatening) Ken Burns found a woman who appeared to confess to such assaults. Perhaps so , sometimes I then thought that everybody was starting to loose all good sense.

I can't say I remember specific incidents, but I do remember the antipathy towards returning veterans. Some of the vets I remember meeting had a desperate need to belong, to prove that they were cool. They were desperate to fade into the scenery.

Image
I think one of the things that I feel bad about as an anti-war protester is that I did not stand up for vets more. I never said anything against vets, but I didn't really support them. I think there was a bit of pride mixed with moral superiority. We only saw why we felt we couldn't go, and refused to see why they felt they must. The returning vets got a raw and unsympathetic welcome from many in the anti-war movement.

At the same time, the war produced the largest returning anti-war contingent (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) of any war in American history. Think of the moral courage it takes to admit that, after you have made your sacrifice, that it was wrong.
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
- Will Durant
"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
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Re: Reflections on Ken Burns' Vietnam

Post by _huckelberry »

MeDotOrg wrote:I can't say I remember specific incidents, but I do remember the antipathy towards returning veterans. Some of the vets I remember meeting had a desperate need to belong, to prove that they were cool. They were desperate to fade into the scenery.


I think one of the things that I feel bad about as an anti-war protester is that I did not stand up for vets more. I never said anything against vets, but I didn't really support them. I think there was a bit of pride mixed with moral superiority. We only saw why we felt we couldn't go, and refused to see why they felt they must. The returning vets got a raw and unsympathetic welcome from many in the anti-war movement.

At the same time, the war produced the largest returning anti-war contingent (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) of any war in American history. Think of the moral courage it takes to admit that, after you have made your sacrifice, that it was wrong.


for a while I thought the antiwar movement was meeting no success, the majority of Americans unwavering in support of the war and filled with disgust for the antiwar movement. I thought then though it is probably unprovable that the returning vets against the war changed that. I thought best to stand back and let them speak, they changed the course of events.

I agree with you the returning vets should have been treated better and I wish I could have helped that, but the what side are you on question seemed in the way. Perhaps I had to get a little older to see sense in people with conflicting points of view.
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