OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Thanks for your explanation, honor. I understand your argument better. Gonna noodle on it a bit.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_beastie
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

honorentheos wrote:I did insinuate that the argument being presented in the OP largely quoting from an article, followed by Cam's two posts, were examples of the activities that are often lumped into so-called gamergate (the expanded notion where it stopped being about the gaming industry and instead became...well what the first three posts in this thread reflect) and are reflective of where I see real threats to democracy. I disagree rather strongly with both your and Cam's positions. Those reasons have been expressed in the thread, and I suppose it doesn't help to do it again here. I don't think that constitutes bait but if the only agreeable option was to note places of agreement from which to build I'm at a loss if trying to use our past discussions on bias didn't serve that purpose. Perhaps it wasn't as diplomatically stated as it should have been.


Personally, I don't care if you're disagreeable. I don't view message board interactions, I suspect, in the same way you do. I don't have the time or energy to spend really figuring out how to change people's minds - which is what you are trying to do, at least here. At this point in the game, I realize that very few minds are changed by interactions on the internet. I come here to vent, or get ideas from others on certain topics.

But if you really wanted to change my mind, you went about it in a self-destructive manner. Haidt explains why. You've got to "talk to the elephant", rather than the rider. Talking to the elephant means somehow making some sort of connection to the person so that they don't feel threatened and immediately retrench when you try to change their mind. I know you understand this, but think our past interactions about Haidt should have been enough of a connection. I do remember the first time you were so dismissive of my opinion on something, and that past connection did make that difference. But when it continues, well, that past is too far past. But more to the point, you're not just disagreeing. You're being an asshole about it. Maybe one time I'll give you a pass based on past interactions, like I have with cam. But keep being an asshole, and I'll react to you like you're an asshole. Ask cam ;)

So you genuinely believe I'm a threat to democracy. If it's that serious, just go with it. Who cares how I react? Who cares if I retrench? But clearly you want to change my mind - about something. (I haven't been clear on this thread what that was, to tell the truth) So if that's what you want, even if you think I'm a threat to democracy, keep it to yourself and find a more diplomatic way to broach what you actually want to change my mind about. I doubt you want to change my mind and make me also believe I'm a threat to democracy, so why die on that hill?

I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing. You're confounded that I haven't interpreted or perhaps implemented Haidt in the way you have, and I'm equally confounded at you. Seriously? You read Haidt, you understand the elephant and the rider, and yet you think you can change my mind on something after telling me I'm a threat to democracy and just like cam. Seriously? Come on.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_beastie
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

honorentheos wrote:Within the gaming industry, the debate is hard to isolate as the subcultural nuances very easily and quickly overlap broader cultural concerns. But to answer the question recognizing that each ballooned beyond the subculture, the narrow issues include:

1) The techniques the corporate interests in gaming used to market and sell games. Perhaps more than most other multi-billion dollar industries, the marketing through non-traditional means such as player-produced reviews, insider blogs, and other industry-specific perceived non-paid endorsements are/were seen as a major part of how new games and hardware get marketed to potential consumers. An initial part of the flair-up occurred because the mistaken view that Zoe Quinn had cheated on her boyfriend to get a better review of her game tapped into building resentment of perceived Jones Soda aspects of this marketing structure. (Jones Soda famously paying popular kids to drink and promote their product as a guerilla marketing tactic.)

2) The behavior within the production and marketing industry generally towards women that is notorious for relying on sex to sell games, be it scantily clad women on game cover, in-game sexualized activities like hiring a prostitute or more abusive actions in sand-box games, or using attractive women who are part of a team to promote the games. A lot of friction exists here that bubbled up and over. This one is very difficult to view narrowly as it reflects similar problems through out marketing and many industries, especially where it's perceived to be marketing specifically to men. This also ties directly into point 3.

3) Industry-wide gender inequality issues where fewer women than men have been involved in most levels of game design, production, marketing and consumption. This ties into #2 where female participants that became well-known and recognized were promoted by companies but this tended to diminish their significant role on the creative/production teams where their skill and ability took a backseat to their marketing appeal to the target consumers. It undermined attempts to broaden nongender-centric promotion of the industry to new talent while fueling the belief that the role of attractive but promoted women were really another face underlying point #1. It fueled misogynists arguing that it was proof the women being promoted in the industry were really just part of the marketing scheme and not peers.

4) A meaningful segment of the gaming community (unfortunately, I would add) took this all to be part of a larger conspiracy by non-gaming interests to force identity politics onto gamers. This face took over and authored the hashtag, becoming both easy to condemn but completely detached from the actual issues in 1, 2 or 3. The hashtag-gamergaters promoted conspiracy claims of 2 and 3 as being part of a false flag operation, engaged in basically criminal behavior such as rape threats and invasion of privacy, and became a jumping off point for the narrow discussion to break wide.

The challenge is made more problematic in that 1,2, and 3 both predate the events of gamergate and continue to still be debated issues.

My argument, and underlying issue with the OP and Cam's responses, is they really engage only once one arrives at point 4 in the discussion. The question of what role OMM played in the debate assumes one of the positions in point 4 while not actually engaging the more common but real gender inequality issues that do deserve discussion and interest in promoting a breakdown of the barriers and treatment issues in the industry. Cam's posts are copy-and-paste examples of the things one would see from the 4chan-types who feed off of negative attention as proof social justice warrior are irrational, emotional, and easily manipulated into shouting matches. Inserting Bannon and Breitbart, mirroring the hashtag crowd's claim of larger nefarious manipulation, becomes further escalation to where the conversation does not feel like it's taking place between adults but rather kids trying to present competing fantasies into their make-believe play that makes use of reality only as a framework on which to hang their preferred narrative.

ETA: Entering at point 4, where does one really begin the discussion? The rise of conservative talk show culture? I don't know. Thus my first comment in the thread.


It would have been great, and we would have avoided a whole lot of derailing, if you had just went with this route. But you wanted to attack both me and cam.

Like I said, I really don't care about that part. This is an internet message board, after all. But maybe you should get your priorities straight. What do you really want to do? Vent, or change someone's mind? I've already said I'm about venting, but you seem to want to change minds.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

Hey beastie,

To be clear, I'm still attacking your and Cam's positions taken in the first three posts of this thread (ETA: to differentiate from attacking you and Cam which I admit the "you both suck" comment was inappropriate). Nothing's changed. Res asked a specific question and I tried to answer it.

As I noted much earlier, "...my response comes from viewing the issues around Gamergate as it being one subcultural expression of a much broader culture-conflict that is wide-spread in US society that I think of as being more foundational than anything that could be assigned to the term Gamergate."

and

"The so-called gamergate became a _____gate with the implications of suppressed scandal because of a flair-up around a very typical social media-driven outrage response to a false claim by her BF that a female game developer had slept with a game reviewer in an effort to get good reviews of one of her games. The supposed scandal giving it the ___gate moniker being the manipulation of game marketing to gamers. And yes, part of the masses who think that women in the industry use sex made that part of the debate.

But that narrative was quickly enveloped into a different and more metanarrative discussion than the original issue re: manipulation of gamers by marketing in a multi-billion dollar industry. The metanarratives took over because the two sides I described earlier entered into more and more broad accusations that the actions the other side represents are evils needing to be stomped out so the discussions become each side throwing gas on the others' fires. The dickish chan-er types willing to expose real life information and threaten rape with basically zero regard, viewing any sign of having been offended or sensitivity as a weakness to be exploited; and the offended by the very nature of their identity political stance can't help but enter into the argumentative equivalent of a self-feeding firestorm because each feeds on and feels validated by the actions of the other side. It stopped being about the issue that pertained to the subculture of the gaming industry and became another manifestation of something operating much more broadly in the US. That being, as I noted above, the cultural warfare of identify politics that are locked in a battle to the death with one another because both sides see the other as embodying almost metaphysical concepts ran to the extreme of racism, toxic masculinity, social justice warrioring, feminism, political correctness, self-hate, etc., etc., etc.


That's still what I think is really worthy of consideration here. As to venting or changing minds, I don't know that my intentions fall under either. It's how I see things.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

This is actually a really interesting conversation, no thanks to my nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't what Honor is kind of honing in on is this:

We have now two, maybe three, generations who have been raised on the Internet, so to speak. And we'll only become more integrated as time goes on. As such, we have millions of people being reared on caricatures of ideological positions, and they lack the perspective to distinguish between Poe's Law and reality.

Political nuance gives way to delusion and extremism, hence the rise of nihilism as a sort of reaction to the worst of feminism, conservatism, liberalism, whatever. Gamergate is the canary in the coal mine, and 4Chan type absurdism is the new normal.

Everything is exposed. Corruption and our powerlessness to stop it is producing millions of jaded people which produces a sort of fatalism, and I think democracy is really under threat as the bleakness of our situation is really driven home by how easy we're manipulated not just by Russian trolls, but corporate interests, political absurdities, and everything in between.

The division we're seeing in our country is the paradox of interconnectivity. The ROI of time and energy to sift through the firehose of relentless noise, information, and pure garbage that is so persistant, so relentless, is so small that it's no wonder we retreat into echo chambers. The human psyche just isn't designed for our new reality.

Anyway. The way I cope aside from being an ass is to occasionally unplug. I went for a long hike a while ago. I'm planning a big kayaking trip for 2018. It's about slowing down and regrounding myself to the real pace of life. Sometimes you have to get off the Information Highway and reset.

And vote Democrat. :)

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

An example of what I'm trying to get at is this Atlantic article underscoring the collusion between Wikileaks and the Trump campaign:

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/545738/

Everything is laid bare for the world to see. Rather than empowering the electorate with useful information the article only really serves to remind us how powerless we are. The time it takes to read the article, digest its implications for our democracy, and then be left impotent in the face of this information is sobering. The ROI on one's time and mental energy is zero, practically speaking.

I'm not sure how we, and our up and coming generations, can devote our attention to these matters when it becomes apparent quickly that being informed is not only tricky, but for all intents and purposes, a waste of our time.

That's why in a different thread I suggested to Beastie that we get smart on our new reality. Basically, the Russians beat us to the punch, but if we can figure out how to communicate succinctly and in a way the Internet forces us to, we can still push our narrative. As dumb as it sounds, we need to microtarget echo chambers in their language, microtarget electorates with specialized messaging, and to, god I hate typing this, out meme the nihlists and provocateurs. It is what it is.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_beastie
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

honorentheos wrote:
That's still what I think is really worthy of consideration here. As to venting or changing minds, I don't know that my intentions fall under either. It's how I see things.


Honor,

I did type up a longer response but am not convinced it would make any difference. But I did want to respond to this last statement.

Earlier on this thread, in your response to me, you said

honor wrote:So yeah, I share your particular pessimism from this exchange as well as others. But this one in particular because I don't think it could have been better set up for discussion to have occurred. My impression is the result of each attempt was your becoming more entrenched in your position, asking to have something explained while also taking offense as the responses became more and more reductive...I don't know, beastie. I just don't know.


certainly sounded like you wanted to change my mind about something, and were frustrated about it.

But I may have misunderstood. At any rate, for future reference, just know if you start out on a thread telling me I'm a threat to democracy, and suck, things will probably not go well. I think it was pretty unrealistic to start that way and then expect me to be able to really "hear" what you were trying to say - and then subsequently use that lack of progress of further proof of my suckitude. :P
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:This is actually a really interesting conversation, no thanks to my nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't what Honor is kind of honing in on is this:

We have now two, maybe three, generations who have been raised on the Internet, so to speak. And we'll only become more integrated as time goes on. As such, we have millions of people being reared on caricatures of ideological positions, and they lack the perspective to distinguish between Poe's Law and reality.

Political nuance gives way to delusion and extremism, hence the rise of nihilism as a sort of reaction to the worst of feminism, conservatism, liberalism, whatever. Gamergate is the canary in the coal mine, and 4Chan type absurdism is the new normal.

Everything is exposed. Corruption and our powerlessness to stop it is producing millions of jaded people which produces a sort of fatalism, and I think democracy is really under threat as the bleakness of our situation is really driven home by how easy we're manipulated not just by Russian trolls, but corporate interests, political absurdities, and everything in between.

The division we're seeing in our country is the paradox of interconnectivity. The ROI of time and energy to sift through the firehose of relentless noise, information, and pure garbage that is so persistant, so relentless, is so small that it's no wonder we retreat into echo chambers. The human psyche just isn't designed for our new reality.

Anyway. The way I cope aside from being an ass is to occasionally unplug. I went for a long hike a while ago. I'm planning a big kayaking trip for 2018. It's about slowing down and regrounding myself to the real pace of life. Sometimes you have to get off the Information Highway and reset.

And vote Democrat. :)

- Doc


I am interested in seeing honor's response to this. I think it is depressingly accurate.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Maksutov
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Maksutov »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:This is actually a really interesting conversation, no thanks to my nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't what Honor is kind of honing in on is this:

We have now two, maybe three, generations who have been raised on the Internet, so to speak. And we'll only become more integrated as time goes on. As such, we have millions of people being reared on caricatures of ideological positions, and they lack the perspective to distinguish between Poe's Law and reality.

Political nuance gives way to delusion and extremism, hence the rise of nihilism as a sort of reaction to the worst of feminism, conservatism, liberalism, whatever. Gamergate is the canary in the coal mine, and 4Chan type absurdism is the new normal.

Everything is exposed. Corruption and our powerlessness to stop it is producing millions of jaded people which produces a sort of fatalism, and I think democracy is really under threat as the bleakness of our situation is really driven home by how easy we're manipulated not just by Russian trolls, but corporate interests, political absurdities, and everything in between.

The division we're seeing in our country is the paradox of interconnectivity. The ROI of time and energy to sift through the firehose of relentless noise, information, and pure garbage that is so persistant, so relentless, is so small that it's no wonder we retreat into echo chambers. The human psyche just isn't designed for our new reality.

Anyway. The way I cope aside from being an ass is to occasionally unplug. I went for a long hike a while ago. I'm planning a big kayaking trip for 2018. It's about slowing down and regrounding myself to the real pace of life. Sometimes you have to get off the Information Highway and reset.

And vote Democrat. :)

- Doc


Great post. It isn't alarmist but realist, I'm afraid. Thank you for posting this.

But I'm not voting D until they show me some real honest to gawd reform of their own corruptions and a path away from their own culture war promotion of identity politics. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:This is actually a really interesting conversation, no thanks to my nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't what Honor is kind of honing in on is this:

We have now two, maybe three, generations who have been raised on the Internet, so to speak. And we'll only become more integrated as time goes on. As such, we have millions of people being reared on caricatures of ideological positions, and they lack the perspective to distinguish between Poe's Law and reality.

Political nuance gives way to delusion and extremism, hence the rise of nihilism as a sort of reaction to the worst of feminism, conservatism, liberalism, whatever. Gamergate is the canary in the coal mine, and 4Chan type absurdism is the new normal.

Everything is exposed. Corruption and our powerlessness to stop it is producing millions of jaded people which produces a sort of fatalism, and I think democracy is really under threat as the bleakness of our situation is really driven home by how easy we're manipulated not just by Russian trolls, but corporate interests, political absurdities, and everything in between.

The division we're seeing in our country is the paradox of interconnectivity. The ROI of time and energy to sift through the firehose of relentless noise, information, and pure garbage that is so persistant, so relentless, is so small that it's no wonder we retreat into echo chambers. The human psyche just isn't designed for our new reality.

Anyway. The way I cope aside from being an ass is to occasionally unplug. I went for a long hike a while ago. I'm planning a big kayaking trip for 2018. It's about slowing down and regrounding myself to the real pace of life. Sometimes you have to get off the Information Highway and reset.

And vote Democrat. :)

- Doc

Hi Cam,

I tend to agree largely with your thoughts above, with the caveat I don't think Gamergate is unique or different from everywhere else we see it being manifest but had a unique place on the fringe of US culture that made how the culture broadly interacted with it somewhat unique. I think what Gamergate offered was the chance for it to be spectator sport made possible because many people could take a position outside of the subculture but with some sense of shared identity with the participants that resembles the rabid fandom of dedicated sports fans.

It becomes something that allows some distance if we aren't gamers or interested in the subculture. But the conflict isn't different from the conflict we see in all demographics, and people have emotional responses to it because of this that go beyond what they'd experience simply hearing a news story, in my opinion.

To abstractly illustrate this, supposing many of us on this board are of an age where we didn't grow up with the internet but it became part of our lives only as we were at least old enough to vote or later - what is it we all would agree on makes us American besides citizenship?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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