Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _beastie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Black Congresspeople have caught on to the Russians...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/p ... aucus.html

You'll just have to read the article. There's too much to unpack.

- Doc


Yes, I read about that as well this week. The Russian Trolls also may be creating fake antifa accounts to make them look bad.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/59dw ... ssia-vgtrn

I just wish republicans who seem copacetic with Russia's pro-Trump involvement would understand that, while Trump may be a useful tool for now, this isn't about Trump. It's about the continued destabilization of the US in order to neutralize us.

Or, as I believe you said in another post, they're really not looking to "make America great again". They want us to be so divided and distrustful of our government that the US will not be in a position of power anymore, and will be removed as a possible deterrent to their real goal: to regain what they lost at the collapse of the USSR.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _beastie »

Thanks for bringing us back to topic.

I admit that lately it's been a bit frustrating to participate here. Of course subbie is always there to try and distract and troll, but there's been this tension lately between doc and other posters that ends up being a distraction as well. That frustrates me more than subbie, because I find it easy to ignore him when needed due to the fact that he so rarely says anything of substance or interest (when he does, I'm actually shocked, and it does happen now and then).

But doc has a lot of substance to say, as do the other posters that are in a negative cycle with him. I don't want to ignore any of them, so that means I have to try and wade through the noise to get to the signal.

I would really love to see the noise cut back a bit, but since I at times contribute to the noise, I guess that makes me a hypocrite. Oh well.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _beastie »

EAllusion wrote:I'm not sure to what extent people appreciate this refers to activities other than the effort to elect Trump and give him support in Congress. Russia also backs Jill Stein. The goal is to prop up extreme elements and sow division first.

It's multifaceted. It wasn't simply about supporting Trump. Hence Russia using Facebook to organize anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim rallies in America:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/exclusive- ... on-us-soil

It's also ongoning. That's why Russian troll/bot accounts with an extensive network of influence are all of a sudden are really interested in the NFL:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKg_cRmW4AAHX3_.jpg

The effort to elect Trump probably was successful. It's hard to know how much Russian actions influenced the election, but the result was so narrow that it probably was enough to tip the scales. It was stunningly successful attack on the US, potentially more damaging than Pearl Harbor or 9/11. And it's hard to deal with because it worked by weaponizing the minds of fellow Americans, so there's no unified opportunity to fight back as Americans. All the signals from Trump are welcoming towards future interference as well. And why not? Rupert Murdoch et. al. have waged a multi-decade propaganda war convincing a huge swath of Americans that the real enemy is Democrats/liberals. People are willing to forgive an awful lot when waging war against the enemy.


This really gets right to the heart of the matter.

Well said.

This is why I'm so disheartened right now. Sure, as a liberal, I'm always disheartened when an uber-conservative is elected president because I worry about what he'll do (always a he to this point).

But that's not what my current distress is about at all.

It's far deeper than that. For the first time in my life, I worry about whether or not our liberal democracy is going to survive. And it's not Trump destroying it (although he's eager to try). It's the minds of our fellow Americans that have been "weaponized" by a very clever opponent, who has been playing the long game.

I think the difficulty "playing the long game" has always been a weakness for the US. And it's not just our difficulty playing the long game, but our difficulty in truly grasping how other groups really are in it for the long game (I think this is part of the root of the difficulty we have in any of our interactions in the middle east).
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _beastie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Majax,

Well. I'll tell you what it is.

Nationalism is really just an extension of the family. Family is the one thing that matters in life, and nations are just an extended expression of family. Nation-states house those families. Families that teach common values. A nation is the literal manifestation of who you are, who your family is, and what you represent to the rest of the world.

When people reject the nation they live in they're rejecting family. They're viewed as traitorous. When they import millions of people who don't share your family's values and thus by extension the nation-state's values it creates massive conflict. It's Romeo and Juliet on a very large scale. The traitorous backstabbing Liberals who degrade a nation and shun their own families are literally telling you, the very person they know best, their kinsmen, that they reject you and embrace a foreign value system over their own.

They reject their own family.

And that's why you don't like them.

- Doc


This is another example of Doc's substance.

I think this is a very succinct and insightful summary of this phenomenon.

I've been rereading the book The Republican Brain (which is a book republicans detest, but it actually is pretty even-handed). As most of us have heard by now, thanks to numerous studies and Jonathan Haight, there are very fundamental differences between how liberals and conservatives process the world. One of the differences has to do with loyalty and outsiders.

Conservatives are very loyal to their group. That is an admirable trait. At the same time, they tend to define their group more narrowly. That may help if you're part of the group, benefiting from that more narrow scope (resources can be divided between a smaller group), but less admirable in regards to attitudes and behaviors towards those deemed as outsiders.

So I think doc is right. I think that conservatives do view liberals as traitors for being more willing to include a larger number of people in the tribal group. It's apparent in the disdain with which they refer to "globalists" and obvious in their current emphasis on nationalism.

Liberals like me, in return, wonder how conservatives can be so heartless in wanting to turn away desperate refugees.

Which brings us to another fundamental difference: the fear factor. Conservatives tend to have a more notable fear/disgust reaction to the unknown than liberals. So when I think "refugees", I just think of families with children or young people desperate to escape a horrific situation. When conservatives think "refugees", they may be more likely to also think "someone who, deep down, hates freedom and wants to blow us up".

These are serious differences in how we process the world.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _beastie »

I think that there’s an unfortunately timed “perfect storm” that is currently enabling the Russians to achieve their goals. As with all perfect storms, it contains several elements that may not have been connected at the beginning, but combined together to create something greater than their parts.

1. The US’s perfect storm: In the US, in the last few decades, we’ve witnessed an increase in partisanship and a growing divide between parties. We’ve discussed this several times on this board, so I’ll just do a brief summary. I think it really started during the Civil Rights Era. Prior to that period, there were conservatives and liberals in each party. But post-Civil Rights, Republicans decided to make a play for conservative southerners, who tend to be more religious and socially conservative versus the moderate and even liberal republicans of the past who were socially liberal although economically conservative. This reshaped the republican party, as fully embracing (eventually, once the dixiecrats fled the party) civil rights reshaped the democratic party. Now conservatives are republicans, and liberals are democrats. No mixing. In addition, political parties began to lose some of their power to bribe and coerce members into supporting legislation. In addition, more money was obtainable outside the party than from the party. Then, within the last few years, computerized gerrymandering delivered the fatal blow in ensuring the conservatives or liberals only had to appeal to their base. They no longer had to make attempts to reach beyond their base to ensure election. And, of course, 24/7 cable news balkanized our news sources.

2. The Global perfect storm: Due to both wars and global catastrophes (see: global warming and how the US military always warned it would be destabilizing https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca ... bd87e45679 ) Increased immigration has created tensions between conservatives and liberals in all countries (although the exact parameters of liberal versus conservative differs in different countries, obviously). Terrorism, which has always been with us, has increased in Western targets, while decreasing world-wide. (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/16/upsh ... ml?mcubz=1) But the increase in Western targets has ensured that terrorism is now an obsessive focus in the west.

3. Social Media: the development of new platforms of interactions, and the uncertainty of governments in how to or it to regulate these platforms, has provided a dramatically increased the ability to reach wide audiences.

I think these three factors have allowed Russia to more fully enact and reach their goals.

And I think liberal democracy may be in trouble world-wide, if we don’t figure this out quickly.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _The CCC »

I think we first have identify the problem. Russia is merely taking advantage of a process we have been undergoing for about 50+ years now. I trace it back to our involvement in Vietnam War. My generation was the last to trust what our government was telling us, at least at first. In 1968 it was Nixon's "Secret Plan" to end the war(He didn't have one). By 1972 it was just a delaying acting to get Nixon elected again. So our problem isn't Russia per say. It is that we don't have faith that our own democratic ideals and institutions will survive the lying.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

beastie wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Majax,

Well. I'll tell you what it is.

Nationalism is really just an extension of the family. Family is the one thing that matters in life, and nations are just an extended expression of family. Nation-states house those families. Families that teach common values. A nation is the literal manifestation of who you are, who your family is, and what you represent to the rest of the world.

When people reject the nation they live in they're rejecting family. They're viewed as traitorous. When they import millions of people who don't share your family's values and thus by extension the nation-state's values it creates massive conflict. It's Romeo and Juliet on a very large scale. The traitorous backstabbing Liberals who degrade a nation and shun their own families are literally telling you, the very person they know best, their kinsmen, that they reject you and embrace a foreign value system over their own.

They reject their own family.

And that's why you don't like them.

- Doc


This is another example of Doc's substance.

I think this is a very succinct and insightful summary of this phenomenon.

I've been rereading the book The Republican Brain (which is a book republicans detest, but it actually is pretty even-handed). As most of us have heard by now, thanks to numerous studies and Jonathan Haight, there are very fundamental differences between how liberals and conservatives process the world. One of the differences has to do with loyalty and outsiders.

Conservatives are very loyal to their group. That is an admirable trait. At the same time, they tend to define their group more narrowly. That may help if you're part of the group, benefiting from that more narrow scope (resources can be divided between a smaller group), but less admirable in regards to attitudes and behaviors towards those deemed as outsiders.

So I think doc is right. I think that conservatives do view liberals as traitors for being more willing to include a larger number of people in the tribal group. It's apparent in the disdain with which they refer to "globalists" and obvious in their current emphasis on nationalism.

Liberals like me, in return, wonder how conservatives can be so heartless in wanting to turn away desperate refugees.

Which brings us to another fundamental difference: the fear factor. Conservatives tend to have a more notable fear/disgust reaction to the unknown than liberals. So when I think "refugees", I just think of families with children or young people desperate to escape a horrific situation. When conservatives think "refugees", they may be more likely to also think "someone who, deep down, hates freedom and wants to blow us up".

These are serious differences in how we process the world.


Beastie,

I think you're pretty much spot on with your assessment. There are psychological divides that I don't think will ever reach some sort of acceptable compromise on both sides. The partisanship you speak of is definitely exasperated by the echo chambers we choose to frequent. Back in the day those echo chambers were churches, social clubs, water cooler discussions, and schools. These days we've transferred a lot of that interpersonal exposure to the Internet creating a paradox that the more we're connected the more we willfully isolate ourselves to smaller and smaller ideologies.

Going back to my nation-state comments. In Majaxspeech:

Family is really important because they act like family. Family is not a one-way street! Family is about a group of people showing reciprocal care and support and love for each other. It's a solid web that each member can depend on. Everyone contributes to the family for the strength and welfare of the family.

Family is not an excuse for one person to take and take and take. When one person, or multiple people, are not holding up their obligations to the family (to love, care, not cause harm, so and so forth), we acknowledge their choices and let them go until they make better ones.

------------

So, there's your mental divide. We have a common ground in the first paragraph, but the divide is found within the second. The family has structure. The family has duty to itself. The family comes first. Project that out to the national level and you have Conservatism.

You will never convince, at a fundamental level, the Conservative to place a non-family member above his own family. This is most applicable at the individual level and the expectation of a citizen who is a nationalist is that it will be applicable on a national level. The sense of betrayal Conservatives feel when the social contract is broken is not repairable.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

One other thought. So when a Conservative is attacked by a Liberal for this or that I believe a Conservative 'hears' this:

Liberal: It's not fair you've done well for yourself. You need to take care of this person who had it bad.

Conservative: Screw that. It's hard enough for me to take care of myself and my family. Why don't they take care of themselves?

Liberal: You took advantage of them due to your position in life. You're a filthy racist and you don't care about the addicted, poor, and women!

Conservative: No I didn't. No I'm not! I'm just taking care of my family! They need to do the same!

Liberals: Here are the reasons why you're a real piece of crap racist, misogynist, and classist! You filthy “F” head.

Conservative: Screw you. I'm busting my ass to take care of myself and my family. I'm not a burden on anyone, I obey the law, and you're telling me I have to take care of people who make bad choices! If people just didn't make bad choices and worked hard like I do they could have what I have.

Liberal: YOU oppress. They NEVER could have what you have. YOUR system keeps them down. YOU are a racist. YOU are a sexist. YOU are a classist. YOU are at fault. YOU are the problem. YOU. YOU disgust me.

Conservative: I'm voting for someone who will never put a person like you into power because YOU scare the crap out of me.

Trump: Did someone call?

----------------------

Liberals are viewed as traitors to the family and to the country. Conservatives are viewed as privileged pieces of crap. These viewpoints are constantly reinforced through media on both sides. The mainstream media takes the Leftist position, albeit with relative passivity. The right-wing media obviously takes their position aggressively. People seek out their confirmation bias and thus we have the Internet providing that for them.

The truth of the matter is there is no overcoming this. The partisanship we see has always existed and always will. It is what it is. The real question for savvy politicians is how do they take advantage of this reality to get their goals implemented? Right now it looks like identity politics is the tactic that's being taken. We'll see if it works or not in 2018 and 2020. If not, the Left will have to adjust their approach or continue to suffer the consequences. If it works out, then we'll see a continued rise in social Marxism and partisanship. The market will respond accordingly.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Trump and the Foundations of Geopolitics

Post by _The CCC »

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
Post Reply