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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:23 pm 
God
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Majax,

Give us a snapshot of your economic policies you'd like to see enacted that would reduce our national debt, increase wages without increasing real costs, and increase American internal production to reduce imports.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:45 pm 
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I don't think "economic nationalism" has a coherent meaning as Bannon uses it, and it definitely does not as Ajax uses it. Moreover, the two people's views don't exactly align. Bannon's support of large tax increases to finance national greatness economic projects is what Ajax calls socialism and was something he vociferously opposed in milder form under Obama.


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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Former White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon emphasized in a 60 Minutes interview that President Donald Trump’s message of economic nationalism...

Chancellor Trump and Reich Minister of Economics Steve Bannon stand triumphantly on the viewing platform while squadron after squadron of Whiteshirts march by, following their successful Night of the iPads.

The path is clear: First, cut all trading alliances, then build a huge wall, gut education, eliminate health care, deny climate change, and finally slash taxes for the rich and let the savings trickle down to the masses. Can't go wrong with that coherent plan of economic nationalism. A thousand year Trumparody.

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:15 am 
God
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
1. The illegal or work-permitted person serving as a short-order cook at your favorite Denny's,
2. The illegal or work-permitted person who busses tables and washes dishes at your corner diner,
3. The illegal or work-permitted person who works construction at the new home site down the road,
4. The illegal or work-permitted person that cleans rooms at the motel.

Who pays healthcare for their children? Since they don't earn enough on paper to feed their many children most qualify for food stamps, WIC, TANF, section 8, and social welfare programs ad infinitum.

This isn't an 'economic nationalism' problem. This is a welfare roll problem. Otherwise, it would seem that the cash disbursed through welfare is pretty much plowing right back into the economy via rent, hospital bills and grocery purchases.


Maxine Waters wrote:
Especially with the construction example, every American worker they've undercut now qualifies for all these programs as well. Do you see how this is twice as expensive to those who are still employed and paying the taxes which now barely pays the interest on the national debt?

This isn't an 'economic nationalism' problem. This is a benefits qualification problem, and it exists for legal residents. This is also a problem inherent to capitalism and 'job creators' in that most any employer will pay as little as they can for their labor. It isn't as if a bunch of illegals gather up and march on into a construction company and negotiate to be paid at lower than the prevailing wage, right?


Maxine Waters wrote:
What happens when these illegal immigrants are granted amnesty? Will they continue working at these sub minimum paid under the table jobs? No, they're going to move onto the social welfare rolls and be replaced by other illegal immigrants. They can still collect welfare while they work as long as they're paid under the table anyway so long as they don't earn too much to get the attention of the IRS.

At this point, regardless of their situation they'd be citizens, correct? Again, there goes your 'economic nationalism' argument.


Maxine Waters wrote:
This works out good for wealthy businessmen who n̶e̶e̶d̶ want the cheap labor. It's partly why the minimum wage laws are such a joke since none of this is enforced uniformly at all.

Oh, look. I think that you've actually identified the problem.

This still has nothing to do with 'economic nationalism', but at least you finally got around to pointing out the real issue. ; )


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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 am 
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I'd suggest that every important question of economics falls into one of the following two broad categories: the production of useful goods and services, and how those goods and services are distributed. The question is, if we take an "America First" (whatever that means) philosophy, how is it going to help? Is it going to cause an increased production of goods and services? Or is it going to cause goods and services to be distributed better (whatever that means)?

Majax seams to be conceding that "illegals" pull their weight when it comes to actually producing useful goods and services, but thinks it is a suboptimal distribution because the man unfairly take advantage of their hard work to unfairly enrich themselves. And despite how they work their asses off, it is still a drag--even though they work their asses off now, once they become legal they (and their descendentes) will instantly change from being industrious makers out of necesity to lazy leachy takers out of nature.

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:52 am 
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Brackite wrote:

Remember that all five GOP LDS Senators voted to confirm Judge Gorsuch to the Supreme Court.


I never claimed that LDS Senators can't be flat out wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:52 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Majax,

Give us a snapshot of your economic policies you'd like to see enacted that would reduce our national debt, increase wages without increasing real costs, and increase American internal production to reduce imports.

- Doc


Bannon has already done this. I'm not saying it solves every world problem. I'm saying it's in the best interest of the most American citizens. I also think if Trump doubles down on economic nationalism, he will win again in 2020.

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:57 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Majax,

Give us a snapshot of your economic policies you'd like to see enacted that would reduce our national debt, increase wages without increasing real costs, and increase American internal production to reduce imports.

- Doc


Bannon has already done this. I'm not saying it solves every world problem. I'm saying it's in the best interest of the most American citizens. I also think if Trump doubles down on economic nationalism, he will win again in 2020.


Ok. You can't. You never do, really. Now that I think about it you've never really demonstrated a strong capacity for original thought or abstract thinking. You're going to have to do better if you want your ideas to gain traction.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:02 am 
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canpakes wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry for not concentrating on the majority of illegals - you know, the hordes working as doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals. Right?

No need to apologize, after all you deliberately mentioned them on every item in your list of questions...are you now wanting to move the goalpost away from them as we move forward with this discussion?
Since the other option on your list of questions was the "work-permitted", can you provide any statistics for how many doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals are "work permitted"? While I am aware that the US H-1B visa allows for immigrants to join residency/fellowship programs, I am unaware of a work-permit being allowable for State Licensure among many professions. This visa applies to several professions under very limiting qualifications, thus making doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals working under a "work-permit" a statistically negligent minority in the context of your questions. But, perhaps you could clarify what claim you are insinuating on this regard? (because it still seems to be an argument for the exception and not the rule)

canpakes wrote:
Anyhow, if you are going to talk about 401k participation ... less than half of all Americans participate in one, and of those, less than a third save enough to meet recommended retirement standards. So, you'd better widen your net of disdain outside of just poor illegals - who aren't exactly making a boatload to invest in the first place - if 401k participation is your beef.

401k was an example not a new topic - i'll leave the goal post moving to you, you seem to have the back strength for such an endeavor. But you make a good point, unfortunately its a point for your opponent. American participation in the "capital" measurement for economic nationalism is relevant, but if an American that wants to invest but cannot because wages are being kept too low by unfair and unaccounted for labor competition; well then.

canpakes wrote:
If you're going to bitch about remittances, then you've lost that argument before you even get your first sentence out:

Quote:
The economics of remittances surprise a lot people, even those who aren't sympathetic to Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric. People intuitively assume keeping that money in the United States is a good thing for the American economy, but many macroeconomists disagree.

Apart from the obvious counter-point of "many macroeconomists also agree" - it still does not contradict the answer given to your direct question - narrow to the topic of economic nationalism. Leave the goalpost where you first planted it, please.

canpakes wrote:
Why?

Oh do tell...but make sure its heavy with speculation

canpakes wrote:
One reason is that remittances mean cheaper stuff for Americans. The millions of Mexican immigrants working in the United States provide goods and services for American consumers, and in exchange they earn dollars. About 11.7 million Mexican immigrants live in the United States, and last year Mexico received about $24 billion back in remittances. When immigrants send their earnings overseas, America loses dollars, but no actual goods or services. Figuratively, we trade pieces of paper with green ink for real stuff. If families in Mexico use those dollars to buy things made in Mexico or elsewhere, then America has essentially gotten immigrants' services without paying anything tangible in return. If, on the other hand, families in Mexico use their remittances to buy things made in the United States, then American exports increase. Either way, the American economy wins.

Aside from the obvious CFR for just about every speculation you have provided here....you should note that you are, in fact, proving how it hurts economic nationalism...you are describing a scenario that expressly has "control" residing with a foreign body....the choice for spending and investing rests with the Mexican Citizen...ergo, thank you for the affirmation on how your examples hurt economic nationalism. Perhaps you should find yourself a definition of economic nationalism that you can understand before you attempt to argue against it?

Your position reminds me of an old art school saying - "I am not a professional art critic, but I know what I hate when I see it".


canpakes wrote:
Nice of you to jump in and waffle on without saying anything much, though. It proves the point I'm making just that much more.


Point? You have yet to really make an actual point, what you have done is toss around a few narrow opinions that are tantamount to "no, its not - because i say so". You asked questions and were answered quite effectively. Insinuations and armchair suppositions are not actually rebuttals or refutations of those answers. But perhaps I am falling prey to the "jumping to conclusions" predator that seemingly has you clenched firmly in it teeth.....exactly what was your point about economic nationalism?

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:22 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Majax,

Give us a snapshot of your economic policies you'd like to see enacted that would reduce our national debt, increase wages without increasing real costs, and increase American internal production to reduce imports.

- Doc


Bannon has already done this. I'm not saying it solves every world problem. I'm saying it's in the best interest of the most American citizens. I also think if Trump doubles down on economic nationalism, he will win again in 2020.


Trump has actively rejected Bannon's tax policy in an extreme way. Bannon favors large tax increases on the wealthy. Trump favors large tax cuts on the wealthy. Trump is also diametrically opposed to Bannon's positions on regulatory matters. He tried to cut Medicaid, which is the opposite of Bannon's "workers party" rhetoric. Trump functions like a parody of a corrupt plutocrat on economic policy so far. Bannon, when he's not contradicting himself, is like a cross between 1930's Germany and New Deal liberalism.

You're basically saying that Trump won't win again in 2020.


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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:06 am 
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EAllusioin wrote:
Trump favors large tax cuts on the wealthy. Trump is also diametrically opposed to Bannon's positions on regulatory matters. He tried to cut Medicaid, which is the opposite of Bannon's "workers party" rhetoric. Trump functions like a parody of a corrupt plutocrat on economic policy so far.


That right there is why designating Trump as populist has always been off. Sure some of his rhetoric has some populist elements to it(I think Make America Great Again comes across as populist to his followers) but when the rubber meets the road, almost everything he does in terms of policy is counter to anything we would normally consider populism. It feels like when we say Trump is taping into populism, what we actually mean is "he is lying to his audience about what he intends to do".

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:41 am 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry for not concentrating on the majority of illegals - you know, the hordes working as doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals. Right?

No need to apologize, after all you deliberately mentioned them on every item in your list of questions...are you now wanting to move the goalpost away from them as we move forward with this discussion?

You should strive to be more observant... as an architect, epsecially. Please find mention of doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals in my original post. And let me know whatever goal posts you are imagining, along with that.


subgenius wrote:
Since the other option on your list of questions was the "work-permitted", can you provide any statistics for how many doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals are "work permitted"? While I am aware that the US H-1B visa allows for immigrants to join residency/fellowship programs, I am unaware of a work-permit being allowable for State Licensure among many professions. This visa applies to several professions under very limiting qualifications, thus making doctors, lawyers, architects and other professionals working under a "work-permit" a statistically negligent minority in the context of your questions. But, perhaps you could clarify what claim you are insinuating on this regard? (because it still seems to be an argument for the exception and not the rule)

Image


subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Anyhow, if you are going to talk about 401k participation ... less than half of all Americans participate in one, and of those, less than a third save enough to meet recommended retirement standards. So, you'd better widen your net of disdain outside of just poor illegals - who aren't exactly making a boatload to invest in the first place - if 401k participation is your beef.

401k was an example not a new topic - i'll leave the goal post moving to you, you seem to have the back strength for such an endeavor.

Oops, my bad. I didn't realize that I was 'moving the goalposts' by actually engaging your 'example'.


subgenius wrote:
But you make a good point, unfortunately its a point for your opponent. American participation in the "capital" measurement for economic nationalism is relevant, but if an American that wants to invest but cannot because wages are being kept too low by unfair and unaccounted for labor competition; well then.

I see. You believe that there's a cohort of the population that intentionally negotiates for lower wages. Much like ajax believes.

I feel so sorry for those poor, defenseless job creators out there that are being forced to pay their employees these low wages, against their moral sensibilities.

What can we do about this?


subgenius wrote:
Aside from the obvious CFR ...

Here you go: http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/08/opinions/ ... index.html

I'm sure that you know how to use The Googles, so you'll be able to find other data on this.


subgenius wrote:
... for just about every speculation you have provided here....you should note that you are, in fact, proving how it hurts economic nationalism...you are describing a scenario that expressly has "control" residing with a foreign body....the choice for spending and investing rests with the Mexican Citizen...ergo, thank you for the affirmation on how your examples hurt economic nationalism.

You didn't read the article, did you? ; )


subgenius wrote:
Perhaps you should find yourself a definition of economic nationalism that you can understand before you attempt to argue against it?

Hey, I asked ajax, but he decided not to offer one. Otherwise, we have some offered up already by other sources.

Do you want to step in and craft one yourself?


subgenius wrote:
Your position reminds me of an old art school saying - "I am not a professional art critic, but I know what I hate when I see it".

Your position reminds me of someone who got caught lazily pissing in the bushes, then loudly complains that he wasn't able to walk the extra 10 yards to the restroom.


subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Nice of you to jump in and waffle on without saying anything much, though. It proves the point I'm making just that much more.

Point? You have yet to really make an actual point, what you have done is toss around a few narrow opinions that are tantamount to "no, its not - because i say so". You asked questions and were answered quite effectively. Insinuations and armchair suppositions are not actually rebuttals or refutations of those answers. But perhaps I am falling prey to the "jumping to conclusions" predator that seemingly has you clenched firmly in it teeth.....exactly what was your point about economic nationalism?

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:31 pm 
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I think that one of the most short-sighted and foolish things about conservative "white nationalism" or "economic nationalism" (whatever one chooses to call it) is the claim (or, at least, the implication) that the economic interests and well-being of Americans can't be enhanced or assured without somehow also disadvantaging and marginalizing those of all other nationalities. This is not only untrue, it is inherently uncompassionate and even immoral. There is nothing so special about us Americans that we inherently deserve to be better off and wealthier than all other nationalities at their expense. What has made our country great is not so much what we have done to selfishly enhance our own wealth and power, but what we have contributed to the benefit of the rest of mankind in general.

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Last edited by Gunnar on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Economic Nationalism will unite Americans of all races..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:35 pm 
God
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Majax, what about a policy demanding that the poor be sent back to Europe, Africa, Asia, Antarctica, or wherever they are coming from?

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