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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehesi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:37 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
It would seem your hyper-attention to grammar makes it impossible for you to see the point (forest) for the words (trees).


That would make sense if there were lots of grammatical problems in the article. There isn't. This is copy-edited for a major publication. It's extremely well written and argued. Contrary to what Shades thinks, the article does make concrete points with supporting statements and does not rely on (mis)using esoteric words to seem sophisticated. Ta-Nehisi Coates is one of a handful of the best essayists in the United States. Shades thinks thinks he's a carbon copy of a message board poster who is infamous in his little corner of the world for trying seem intelligent in his writing style, but totally unaware of what an awful writer he is.

One way to look at it is how he is poor reader of Coates. The other way to look at this is that Shades is highly complimentary of Droopy. Again, Coates has written for a large range of prestigious publications in the US, has a MacArthur genius grant, and his last book won the National Book Award in the non-fiction category. If Droopy's writing ability is equivalent to him, doesn't that suggest that Droopy is massively underappreciated and only fails to be a celebrity writer for lack of good fortune?

Droopy "McDunning-Kruger effect" Droops would think, and possibly tell you, that the difference is just that Coates is politically correct while he's not. Maybe Shades thinks that too.

I didn't mean to intimate there were grammar problems with the article. I was pointing out a habit of Shades' that I've noticed before. He focuses so much on writing style the point of what's written is often lost on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehesi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:39 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
I was pointing out a habit of Shades' that I've noticed before. He focuses so much on writing style the point of what's written is often lost on him.

Is the point lost on me, or do I simply decline to comment about the point?

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehesi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Some Schmo wrote:
I didn't mean to intimate there were grammar problems with the article. I was pointing out a habit of Shades' that I've noticed before. He focuses so much on writing style the point of what's written is often lost on him.

You're being generous with Shades here. I mean, the guy just got done equating Ta-Nehisi Coates to Droopy. An astute observer of writing style doesn't do that. He doesn't focus on writing style. Rather, he focuses on "elements of style" era writing guidance coupled with some of his personal quirks.


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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:23 pm 
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It's semi-off topic to the thread, but I recently read this NYT Mag article recommended by Coates. It's on the rapid resegregation of Southern school systems as court ordered desegregation policies have faded. It's some truly depressing stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:25 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It's semi-off topic to the thread, but I recently read this NYT Mag article recommended by Coates. It's on the rapid resegregation of Southern school systems as court ordered desegregation policies have faded. It's some truly depressing stuff.



Quote:
When the Supreme Court handed down its ruling in Brown, which laid the foundation for the destruction of legal segregation not just in schools but in every other aspect of American life, it considered segregation a vestige of slavery. There is this beautiful phrasing taken up by the court in a 1968 school-desegregation opinion that says all these vestiges of slavery had to be eliminated “root and branch.” The history of school desegregation has shown that getting rid of the branches is the easier part. You can chop a tree down to the stump, but if the roots run deep enough, it will grow again. Clemon knows this better than most. The legal barriers fell and for a fleeting moment, during the prime of his life, the nation seemed poised to right its wrongs. His own children never knew the degradation of segregation. But too many of the grandchildren of Brown have known nothing but.

What the Gardendale case demonstrates with unusual clarity is that changes in the law have not changed the hearts of many white Americans. As the historian Bagley wrote, when it comes to school segregation, “there would be no moral awakening.”


Let's just pretend that slavery didn't happen.

After all, what harm could that possibly do to American society?

The most important things is that the rich and comfortable, and their children, are left in peace to enjoy life. And they can't do that if people keep bothering them about poor black people and their children, now can they? So be reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:30 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It's semi-off topic to the thread, but I recently read this NYT Mag article recommended by Coates. It's on the rapid resegregation of Southern school systems as court ordered desegregation policies have faded. It's some truly depressing stuff.


I haven't read it yet, but I will. I just wanted to mention (also semi-off topic) the classes in the North designed for specifically black male children that result in academic excellence. I forget where...Chicago, New York City? I'm sure you know what I'm referring to. The location escapes me at the moment. Private schools, I believe. Possibly related to choir participation.

And this is what it looks like when Jersey Girl CRS. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Same theory as gender divided programs.

Shut up, Jersey.
:biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:50 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
If you haven't read his piece in the October Issue of The Atlantic yet, you ought to:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... es/537909/

There is some razor sharp criticism in here. It's so well argued and written that even if you disagree with every word of it, you should be familiarize yourself with its contents. This is going to be quickly viewed as major work of opinion journalism that will be referred to for years to come.

I thought the essay was fantastic--thank you for bringing it to our attention.

A couple days after Trump won the election last November, I found myself with three other white Americans in Japan. Of us four guys, two were liberal intellectual wannabes, one was politically agnostic, and the fourth was a white-collar Republican that voted for Trump in both the primary and general elections. On multiple occasions, a Japanese man who spoke English and was interested in such things would approach us for our opinion on Trump and what was going on in America. My response was similar to what Coates says here--I said I was shocked that Trump won, and that his victory had a lot to do with racism being more prevalent in America than I thought. I would then introduce my friend by saying something like, "But that's just my opinion as an American that didn't vote for Trump and never would. My friend Jim here did vote for Trump, so he might have some insights into the minds of Trump supporters." As soon as the group of Americans was alone after the third such conversation, my friend blew up at me, literally screaming. The general gist was, "Stop ____ telling everyone here I'm a ____ racist, because I'm ____ not!"

I don't recall ever being yelled at like that, and it made me think about whether it is fair to evaluate Trumpism through the lens of race. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of saying that somebody's motives are different than what they claim they are. On the other hand, it is true that why we do the things we do is a complicated web of incongruent subconscious impulses--a tangled mess of multiple real reasons hidden by other reasons that we tell ourselves because they sound better than the true underlying drivers. So why did my friend have such an intense emotional reaction to what I said? Was it because on some level he knew there was truth to it?

If you would have asked my friend why he voted for Trump, he would have said he wanted a business leader in the White house. Somebody who knew how to balance a budget, cut wasteful spending, lower taxes, and who would fight to make the government more friendly to business. I know those reasons are sincere--four years earlier he had been a very strong Mitt Romney supporter for the same reasons. But in addition to that, he liked Trump. He liked how he was independent and didn't want to sound like typical politicians. He liked how Trump wasn't "politically correct."

But does that make my friend a racist? I think Coates nailed it when he said, "Certainly not every Trump voter is a white supremacist, just as not every white person in the Jim Crow South was a white supremacist. But every Trump voter felt it acceptable to hand the fate of the country over to one." There is no way around that.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Before the election I talked a lot about how even though Trump was likely going to lose, we were going to have to reconcile ourselves with the fact that 60+ million people were going to vote for Donald Trump and 60 million people aren't monsters. Partisan loyalty alone drives millions of votes and a lot of voters just don't think all that deeply about what they are doing. I was wrong about Trump losing, but I was right about his vote totals.

Right after the election, I had a conversation with one of the black employees I supervise. She was in literal tears as she talked about how she was struggling to do basic things like get groceries because she was unsure if the person behind the register voted for Trump. She had this realization that she was probably walking into Trump voters constantly and it disturbed her. For her, the problem was not that these people were racists, but that these people were so indifferent to an overt racism like in Trump that this wasn't a disqualifying trait. That's nearly as bad. It was a common observation right after the election, and I empathize with it.

I still find tension between the "60 million voters aren't bad just because of their ill-considered voting behavior" side and my "indifference to handing the presidency over to overt racial antagonism is really bad" side.


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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:17 pm 
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So, first it was electoral college, then immigration, then it was Russia, now it's Racism - can you give me a hint for what tomorrow's hysteria will be?....honestly the chaos from all the hair on fire is disorienting

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
And this is what it looks like when Jersey Girl CRS. lol

What is "CRS" an acronym for?

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:48 pm 
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The problem with examining the election from this angle is that Trump and Romney had similar numbers among white voters. The argument that Fox News has turned American politics into a moral issue rather than a political one with racial undercurrents for many diehard Republican voters seems to be a constant in the equation. But at what point does the exact same argument Coates presents turn to argument for why a woman candidate did worse among traditional Democratic demographic groups than Obama and lost an election as dire as Coates rightly points out it was? Or that men were more likely to vote for Trump than Hillary all things being equal but were more likely to vote for Obama than the old guy McCain? I was hoping going into reading the article to see Coates focus a bit more on the three states where the Democrats were most surprised (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) and lost by the thinnest of margins. It seems like voter behavior there could have show us something about what happened between 2012 and 2016 that would actually tell us something about America in 2016.

If we looked only at this graph, one might wonder what really led to Clinton's loss if it's strongly defined by racial lines?

Image

If it's complex and multivariate then I suspect this idea every President before Obama rode to victory on white privilege is not telling us anything meaningful enough to also brush off that we failed to elect our first female President and it wasn't despite Democrat-supportive voters of all persuasions showing up in 2016.

Stepping back in time to just after the election, I thought this was a fairly decent early autopsy:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin ... 99a5b13b96

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
And this is what it looks like when Jersey Girl CRS. lol

What is "CRS" an acronym for?

can't remember sh..


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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:18 pm 
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What huck said.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:01 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
And this is what it looks like when Jersey Girl CRS. lol

What is "CRS" an acronym for?

I would like to suggest to everyone that if you're going to insist on using an acronym, make sure the term has been spelled out and explained no more that two or three posts prior to the current post in which you are using it. It is awfully annoying to have to search through a long thread or even several threads or more to find the first time the term it stands for was spelled out (if it was ever spelled out at all). Please don't assume that everyone is familiar with whatever acronym you decide to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:05 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
I would like to suggest to everyone that if you're going to insist on using an acronym, make sure the term has been spelled out and explained no more that two or three posts prior to the current post in which you are using it. It is awfully annoying to have to search through a long thread or even several threads or more to find the first time the term it stands for was spelled out (if it was ever spelled out at all). Please don't assume that everyone is familiar with whatever acronym you decide to use.


Oh okay.

CRS means "Can't Remember ____".

C-a-n-'-t R-e-m-e-m-b-e-r ____

Better G-u-n-n-a-r ?

ETA: I try to hold down the blatant swear words around here that's why I try to soften it some. I thought everyone knew what CRS meant. Maybe you knew it but forgot?

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:23 am 
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I agree with Coates' essay more than I disagree with it. I particularly agree that someone as openly racist, dishonest, misogynistic, incompetent and corrupt as Trump would not have been elected to POTUS if he were not White. It is also obvious to me that he consciously appealed to hard core racists, and they constituted a large enough proportion of his hard core base to practically insure his election.

It is very saddening to me that racism in this country is still pervasive enough to make the election of Trump possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:30 am 
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You just used POTUS why? Because you think most folks know what it means. Same thing with CRS. Virtually everyone adult that I know, knows what it stands for.

Never mind. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:56 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
I agree with Coates' essay more than I disagree with it. I particularly agree that someone as openly racist, dishonest, misogynistic, incompetent and corrupt as Trump would not have been elected to POTUS if he were not White. It is also obvious to me that he consciously appealed to hard core racists, and they constituted a large enough proportion of his hard core base to practically insure his election.

It is very saddening to me that racism in this country is still pervasive enough to make the election of Trump possible.


Name one other white man that would've been elected under the same circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:52 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
The problem with examining the election from this angle is that Trump and Romney had similar numbers among white voters. The argument that Fox News has turned American politics into a moral issue rather than a political one with racial undercurrents for many diehard Republican voters seems to be a constant in the equation. But at what point does the exact same argument Coates presents turn to argument for why a woman candidate did worse among traditional Democratic demographic groups than Obama and lost an election as dire as Coates rightly points out it was? Or that men were more likely to vote for Trump than Hillary all things being equal but were more likely to vote for Obama than the old guy McCain? I was hoping going into reading the article to see Coates focus a bit more on the three states where the Democrats were most surprised (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) and lost by the thinnest of margins. It seems like voter behavior there could have show us something about what happened between 2012 and 2016 that would actually tell us something about America in 2016.

If we looked only at this graph, one might wonder what really led to Clinton's loss if it's strongly defined by racial lines?

Image

If it's complex and multivariate then I suspect this idea every President before Obama rode to victory on white privilege is not telling us anything meaningful enough to also brush off that we failed to elect our first female President and it wasn't despite Democrat-supportive voters of all persuasions showing up in 2016.

Stepping back in time to just after the election, I thought this was a fairly decent early autopsy:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin ... 99a5b13b96

+1

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 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:28 am 
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There's a fairly robust body of data at this point indicating that racial resentment played a significant causal role in the constitution of Trump's voter base.

https://www.thenation.com/article/econo ... acism-did/
https://www.economist.com/news/special- ... race-helps
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... trump.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 6cead53d17

The more likely a white person holds racial animosity, the more likely they were to vote Trump with the most racist voters being a virtual guarantee to vote Trump. Moreover, this effect was significantly more pronounced than it was with Romney or McCain even though they both were running against a black man.

Trump did better among whites that Romney did, though the racial resentment vote is actually stronger than those numbers indicate because Clinton picked up some educated white vote in exchange for losing more uneducated whites. Her gains in white voters were more than washed out in her losses among the most racist subgroups of them.

If it wasn't racial resentment explaining such a shift in the racial resentment vote to Trump, then what was it? The most obvious alternative explanation is that Trump appeals to poorly educated voters for other reasons and poorly educated voters tend to be more racist. Problem is, even when you control for education the effect is there. This shouldn't be terribly surprising. Trump built up a Republican following on the back of relentless pursuit of a racist conspiracy theory. He opened his campaign with profoundly racist comments. It would be more surprising if he wasn't appealing to racists.


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