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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:09 pm 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:

There's a 6 month window on this.


A person who was brought to America when they were 2 years old and has only known life as an American has ~6 months to move to another country or face violent deportation. Your view is that this should be viewed as a positive thing by that person.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:

There's a 6 month window on this.


A person who was brought to America when they were 2 years old and has only known life as an American has ~6 months to move to another country or face violent deportation. Your view is that this should be viewed as a positive thing by that person.


You are misrepresenting my view.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:

Do you think you could possibly let the man speak for himself?

He has many times. But he's also habitually dishonest about how he chooses to respond, so I thought I'd cut to the chase. He wants to eliminate all immigration of non-whites. He will only express this with strawman arguments and vague allusions unless he feels he's talking to a like-minded audience.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:13 pm 
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EAllusion this is what I stated earlier in the thread.

Quote:
What we're talking about isn't deportation per se. I think more to the point we're talking about exiling the children of illegals to a country foreign to them.

It's not as easy as your examples makes it out to be.


And stop misrepresenting me. If you think I am without compassion for the children currently covered by DACA or minimizing their situation, I take that as a personal affront.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:22 pm 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:

You are misrepresenting my view.


The view that you choose to express is that no one should react strongly because six months is plenty of time to act and Trump was doing this to put pressure on Congress. To the latter point, that's just flat wrong. To the former point, it actually takes time to get a new job and move to a foreign country. Trust is already being destroyed. People are being impacted right this very moment. Because the argument you choose to express is that the effects are a ways off and this is a good alternative to indefinite renewals, it actually matters that people are being hurt. People in the cross hairs and those sympathetic to their position ought to be quite concerned about the change rather than looking at it as a positive because a permanent solution is around the corner. Other posters are trying to distort my point into arguing that people being hurt is irrelevant, but I'm trying to get you to understand that the consequences are already starting.

While Congress may act, that's far from guaranteed. It appears to currently have a tougher road than the Obamacare repeal that still managed to crash and burn. The votes are there, but important Republican figures are against it and the sort of Republican voter who actually votes in primaries tends to punish Republicans for votes that are perceived as pro-immigration. That's why we aren't talking about Speaker Cantor right now. No one in their right mind who may be affected by the change should just plan on a DREAM act being passed in the next 6 months.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:27 pm 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:
EAllusion this is what I stated earlier in the thread.

Quote:
What we're talking about isn't deportation per se. I think more to the point we're talking about exiling the children of illegals to a country foreign to them.

It's not as easy as your examples makes it out to be.


And stop misrepresenting me. If you think I am without compassion for the children currently covered by DACA or minimizing their situation, I take that as a personal affront.


Let's further quote you:

Quote:
Kevin. Look at me. DACA was never permanent insurance against deportation. Do you really want people to live their lives in 2 year cycles of worry and concern that they'll be deported? DACA was nothing but a band aid on a gaping wound.


...

Quote:
Kevin honey, kiss my butt. You are far too anxious and impatient.


Kevin - Yes, DACA was a temporary fix, but while in place it protected nearly a million minors from deportation. Now thanks to Trump those protections are gone. Do you really think these hundreds of thousands of young people are happy because now they no longer have to go through a two year cycle of qualifying? Seriously?

Trump is basically saying, "Be done with DACA so it will satisfy my racist base, and I'll just blame Congress if anyone gets deported." The GOP is licking their chops right now using this as leverage for future legislation.


To which you reply,

Quote:
You're wrong, Kevin.


Kevin was actually right, incidentally.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:29 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:

You are misrepresenting my view.


The view that you choose to express is that no one should react strongly because six months is plenty of time to act and Trump was doing this to put pressure on Congress. To the latter point, that's just flat wrong. To the former point, it actually takes time to get a new job and move to a foreign country. Trust is already being destroyed. People are being impacted right this very moment. Because the argument you choose to express is that the effects are a ways off and this is a good alternative to indefinite renewals, it actually matters that people are being hurt. People in the cross hairs and those sympathetic to their position ought to be quite concerned about the change. Other posters are trying to distort my point into arguing that people being hurt is irrelevant, but I'm trying to get you to understand that the consequences are already starting.

While Congress may act, that's far from guaranteed. It appears to currently have a tougher road than the Obamacare repeal that still managed to crash and burn. The votes are there, but important Republican figures are against it and the sort of Republican voter who actually votes in primaries tends to punish Republicans for votes that are perceived as pro-immigration. That's why we aren't talking about Speaker Cantor right now. No one in their right mind who may be affected by the change should just plan on a DREAM act being passed in the next 6 months.


You're wrong. Once again you're wrong.

You presume that I need you to try to get me to understand that consequences are already being felt and experienced?

Listen, I'll return to this another time. Not now because nothing I have to say just now will be useful in any regard.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:36 pm 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:

You're wrong. Once again you're wrong.

You presume that I need you to try to get me to understand that consequences are already being felt and experienced?

Listen, I'll return to this another time. Not now because nothing I have to say just now will be useful in any regard.
Someone whose response to critics of this action is: Chill out. There's plenty of time to fix this. Trump could be putting pressure on Congress. Biannual renewals isn't good anyway...

...does need to be reminded that consequences are happening right now.

Maybe what you said didn't accurately reflect what you actually think. I can only go by your words here.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:49 pm 
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You're right that you only have my words to go by. A three word reply tells you exactly nothing until you backfill it with your own assumptions as a substitute for making inquiry.

That's all I have to say about this right now. I'll return to it.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:53 pm 
God
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EAllusion wrote:

Quote:
Kevin honey, kiss my butt. You are far too anxious and impatient.


Kevin - Yes, DACA was a temporary fix, but while in place it protected nearly a million minors from deportation. Now thanks to Trump those protections are gone. Do you really think these hundreds of thousands of young people are happy because now they no longer have to go through a two year cycle of qualifying? Seriously?

Trump is basically saying, "Be done with DACA so it will satisfy my racist base, and I'll just blame Congress if anyone gets deported." The GOP is licking their chops right now using this as leverage for future legislation.


To which you reply,

Quote:
You're wrong, Kevin.


Kevin was actually right, incidentally.


I have yet to see any reasoning or facts advanced in this thread that suggest that Kevin Graham was not right. There is no reason to suppose that Trump is not simply being his familiar, unprincipled and planless self. With him, what you see is simply and entirely what you get.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:29 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Now thanks to Trump those protections are gone.


No Kevin. Not thanks to Trump. Thanks to Congress not making it into law. Thanks to Attorney State's Generals threatening to sue him for not ending DACA with a drop dead date on their threat (which as I understand it, would have been a successful case) and thanks to Attorney State's Generals threatening to sue him if he does.

Trump didn't start this fire and certainly not out of the blue. This fire belongs to the POTUS that I voted for and the Congress who failed to deal with it. As I see it he's between a rock and a hard place. He has no other choice but to hold Congress' feet to the fire in an attempt to make them do what they should have done to start with.

Then, and only then, will those involuntary immigrants covered under DACA be safe from deportation. Having a two year renewal option isn't security.

Meanwhile the clock is ticking on the 6 months. Defunding deportation is being addressed.

And that's why I said you're wrong when I made a quick post and blew you off earlier. You'll shoot at anything that remotely resembles Trump while ignoring the tight squeezing position he is in on account of DACA.

You don't want to think. You don't want to discuss. The only thing you want to do is shoot, Kevin, and you cannot be reasoned with. Nothing complex is resolved overnight and whether you admit that or not, this is going to take time. There's more going on here besides the all too convenient, "Trump is a ____ up."

I can't think of anything else to say or a reason to say it at this point.

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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:02 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
You're right that you only have my words to go by. A three word reply tells you exactly nothing until you backfill it with your own assumptions as a substitute for making inquiry.

That's all I have to say about this right now. I'll return to it.


I've changed my mind. I won't be returning to anything on this thread.

I'm out.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:15 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Majax what do you think should be done re: DACA? What type of resolution would be acceptable to you?


Give amnesty to DACA to be effective once the wall is built and the border is guaranteed to be enforced, regardless of which party controls the executive branch.

In the past we've given the amnesty and never got the border enforcement in return. So it's understandable that people on the right are skeptical of a deal like this since the left hasn't honored it in the past.

EAllusion's attack that I'm against nonwhite immigrants is not even worth responding to.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:04 am 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:
No Kevin. Not thanks to Trump. Thanks to Congress not making it into law. Thanks to Attorney State's Generals threatening to sue him for not ending DACA with a drop dead date on their threat (which as I understand it, would have been a successful case) and thanks to Attorney State's Generals threatening to sue him if he does.


I think the EO is legally disputable, but DACA has already fared favorably in courts. I'm not sure where you are getting your legal understanding from, but if Trump favored it, his DOJ could have defended it until such time they lost in the event they did. They were likely to prevail. The Trump admin defended his first travel ban in courts, which had a much tougher road to standing up.

If you instead think that Trump sincerely believed it was unconstitutional (lol) this does not jive for a second with his pardoning of a sheriff for ignoring court orders to violate Constitutional rights.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:38 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
EAllusion's attack that I'm against nonwhite immigrants is not even worth responding to.


The reason you are posting as Maxine Waters and not "Ajax18" is because you were discovered to be a Stormfronter who posted vile, racist stuff on the regular.

You participated on Stormfront as recently as within the year.

You repeatedly expressed your support for a white ethnostate.

Here's a direct quote from you:

Quote:
We'd need a few core values

1. No racial misceganation
2. No nonwhite immigrants

If we get this accomplished, most other things will take care of themselves.


Gee. I can't see how anyone would conclude that you oppose non-white immigration.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:40 am 
God

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Maxine Waters wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Majax what do you think should be done re: DACA? What type of resolution would be acceptable to you?


Give amnesty to DACA to be effective once the wall is built and the border is guaranteed to be enforced, regardless of which party controls the executive branch.

In the past we've given the amnesty and never got the border enforcement in return. So it's understandable that people on the right are skeptical of a deal like this since the left hasn't honored it in the past.


The largest source of undocumented immigrants is people overstaying their visas. (This is a civil violation, not a crime, incidentally.)

Please walk me through how a border wall eliminates this.


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:08 am 
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I'm a little confused as to why any fiscal conservative would prioritize ending DACA and deporting participants over other forms of unauthorized immigrants. These are people that we have identified as having potential, have clean criminal records and we, as a country, have invested money into. Many of them are not "children" anymore and are serving as valuable members of society. They typically work higher skill jobs, have higher education and are generally participating in society the way we hope our citizens would.

I've tried to avoid this thread (other than sharing Obama's thoughts) as it hits pretty close to home. One of my interns is part of the 120,00+ participants of this program in my state and her continued ability to learn, grow and work along side us is being threatened. I hope that Congress is able to create a solution. It promises to be a hard road though, given their previous track record on the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors (Dream) Act.

I'd urge anyone here that believes in these individuals and their success stories to contact their elected officials. The Center for American Progress has created a pretty easy to use tool in order to focus contact on swing states that can be found here. And FWD.us has created a tool that will help you contact Congress as well

Image

Just a nice little write-up on "Dreamers" from the NYTimes.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:41 am 
God
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For the record I'm against any repeal or termination of DACA. I think it's cruel and anti-American.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:46 am 
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History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme. All we need to do is declare a certain class of residents as non-citizens.
“None but members of the nation may be citizens of the State. None but those of German blood may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.”
Adolf Hitler


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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:16 am 
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The CCC wrote:
History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme. All we need to do is declare a certain class of residents as non-citizens.
“None but members of the nation may be citizens of the State. None but those of German blood may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.”
Adolf Hitler


In case Beastie is reading this thread here's your Godwin's Law for you.

____ ing CCC, ladies and gentlemen.

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 Post subject: Re: When Trump supported DACA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:26 am 
God

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Even Godwin himself puts qualifications on Godwin's Law.
SEE http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/08/mike ... nazis.html
Mike Godwin — of Godwin’s Law — Wants You to Call These Dudes Nazis
By
Madison Malone Kircher
One of the oldest rules on the internet holds that the longer people discuss something, the more likely a comparison to Hitler will eventually be made. (Think every online debate you’ve had that’s devolved into people calling each other Nazis.) This rule is called Godwin’s law, after its creator, Mike Godwin, who formulated it in 1990, which should tell you something about how little things have changed on the internet.

But what do you do when calling people Nazis is, well, warranted? Following the white-nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, where three were killed and several more injured, Godwin himself has weighed in to let everybody know that calling those attending the rally — many carrying swastika flags — Nazis isn’t hyperbole. It’s the truth. And he’s on-board with it.


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