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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:33 am 
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Chap wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Who the ____ in their right mind, shows up to counter protest, confront and antagonize ARMED ____ NAZI'S, carrying pepper spray and water balloons????

There might be a range of motives for taking part in a demonstration against a Nazi march. Just like some people join a Nazi demonstration because they are hoping for a chance to do violence and get away with it, there might be people with the same motives on the other side. The police are there to deal with that kind of thing, of course, and it is a difficult job.

But I would say that a substantial number of people, probably the great majority, who take the risk of participating in a counter-demonstration to a Nazi march could most justly be characterised as brave people with a sense of history, who remember what happened last time Nazis were allowed to take over the streets unopposed. They don't go there hoping for violence

BTW, why do you have to post in a way that suggests you are swearing a lot? You know, all that '____' stuff? Do you think it will make your posts somehow more sincere and convincing? But this is a discussion board. Only evidence and argument really works here.

I posted 32 times today. I made one post with 2 swear words in it. Feel free to address any of the remaining 31, criticize every poster who includes profanity in their posts, enable your word censor or put me on ignore.

Or develop a sense of perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:52 am 
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The CCC wrote:
I don't know the answer. I don't want to see a return of the violence that so scarred the 1960's, but see the need for the right to peaceable assembly to petition the government for a redress of grievances. How do we maintain that balance so that everyone gets heard, and stay safe?

I wish I could think of a solution but no matter where my line of thought goes, there's always an obstacle. For example, if we ban the carrying of weapons in demonstration, that doesn't stop any bystander or observer in a conceal or open carry state from carrying. If we limit the demonstration to the carrying of signs and placards, those can be used as weapons as well. If we ban the carrying of anything in or around a demonstration, that doesn't prevent fist fights from breaking out.

I think that all sense of balance is over with. The toothpaste is out of the tube and there's not putting it back in. I think more to the point, why are people so angry and how do we address that? Even in that, I come up with obstacle after obstacle.

We do have the right to write to our representatives to make our voices heard and the right to vote them in and out of office. But just between you and me, there's nothing quite the same as a peaceful march where people by their very physical presence and in great numbers, make a powerful statement.

I'm afraid those days are gone for now and with them, our visionaries with the ability to inspire.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:04 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
I wish I could think of a solution but no matter where my line of thought goes, there's always an obstacle. For example, if we ban the carrying of weapons in demonstration, that doesn't stop any bystander or observer in a conceal or open carry state from carrying. If we limit the demonstration to the carrying of signs and placards, those can be used as weapons as well. If we ban the carrying of anything in or around a demonstration, that doesn't prevent fist fights from breaking out.

This is the real world of political decisions. Every decision in that world has marked downsides as well as upsides. No decision solves all the problems. One can always abandon oneself to the dubious pleasures of despair (which is I suppose a way of showing how reasonable and nice one is in comparison with all those other people out there), but real events will continue to happen, with real consequences. So doing nothing is not really a respectable moral choice. There will be demonstrations. There will be counter-demonstrations. So what's to be done?

I'd be interested to know what the courts would say to a law enforcement decision that basically said that the constitutional right to 'peaceable assembly' excludes (at least) the open carrying of loaded military grade automatic weapons while shouting threatening slogans. On the reverse interpretation, we would have to treat every advancing body of troops as acting peaceably until they actually opened fire, which is, to put it mildly, not very sensible.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:35 am 
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Speaking of Things White People Get Away With Thanks to White Privilege...

Could you imagine Martin Luther King wrapping his face up, his supporters carrying Marxist flags all the while screaming like psychopaths, using sonic assault devices, throwing cement filled containers, arming themselves with all manner of items, carrying shields, beating people, and assaulting law enforcement?

Thanks for reminding me of white people exercising their white privilege and getting away with it.

Once again you'll note how comfortable the Leftists are with violence as long as it's politically correct violence. This, historically, has turned out to be disastrous as the more extreme Leftist elements eventually take over and start murdering dissidents. Because, let's say the board dandy here got his way, does he really believe the people he tacitly approved of beating the ____ out of the 'bad' people will suddenly lay down their arms when they don't get their way? Who else is he willing to lay with when suddenly he becomes the target of hate and oppression?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:33 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Speaking of Things White People Get Away With Thanks to White Privilege...

Could you imagine Martin Luther King wrapping his face up, his supporters carrying Marxist flags all the while screaming like psychopaths, using sonic assault devices, throwing cement filled containers, arming themselves with all manner of items, carrying shields, beating people, and assaulting law enforcement?

Thanks for reminding me of white people exercising their white privilege and getting away with it.

Once again you'll note how comfortable the Leftists are with violence as long as it's politically correct violence. This, historically, has turned out to be disastrous as the more extreme Leftist elements eventually take over and start murdering dissidents. Because, let's say the board dandy here got his way, does he really believe the people he tacitly approved of beating the ____ out of the 'bad' people will suddenly lay down their arms when they don't get their way? Who else is he willing to lay with when suddenly he becomes the target of hate and oppression?

- Doc

Not Martin Luther King per se...but the often neglected Huey Newton and the Black Panthers had a unique 10 point program:

We want freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our Black Community.
We want full employment for our people.
We want an end to the robbery by the Capitalists of our Black Community.
We want decent housing, fit for shelter of human beings.
We want education for our people that exposes the true nature of this decadent American society. We want education that teaches us our true history and our role in the present day society.
We want all Black men to be exempt from military service.
We want an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of Black people.
We want freedom for all Black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.
We want all Black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their Black Communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.
We want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace.


Of the 913 hate groups (according to poverty law center https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map) 193 of these groups are Black Separatist groups...that is an astounding 21% of all the hate groups in America....to compare, there are 14 anti-immigrant groups, 21 Christian Identity groups, 10 holocaust denial

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:18 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Once again you'll note how comfortable the Leftists are with violence as long as it's politically correct violence.


Include me out of that stereotype.

Will somebody please tell me whether they think that people who go on a counter-demonstration against a procession of heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists are obliged to turn up with no defensive protection, not even a helmet, and, should they be attacked, to respond by doing no more than saying in a reasonable tone of voice 'Oh spare me! Have pity!!'.

Or what should they do? Not annoy the heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists by expressing any criticism of them in a noticeable way - stay at home and leave the streets to the neo-Nazis?

I'd really like to know. That's why, like beastie, I keep asking the question. Is pacifist non-resistance the only permissible means of opposing neo-Nazis on the streets?

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:48 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Of the 913 hate groups (according to poverty law center https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map) 193 of these groups are Black Separatist groups...that is an astounding 21% of all the hate groups in America....


I don't think that Black Separatism is likely to do much good for black people, in either the short or long term. Nor will the active encouragement of hate.

But if I imagine myself into the life experienced by a black person living in an impoverished inner city, who reflects on the question 'How did it come about that black Americans live lives that are, on the whole, so much worse than the lives of white Americans? Is it simply our fault? If not, whose fault is it?' - then I can imagine that I would not have to be psychologically deeply abnormal in order to think that white society has not shown itself to be my best and most loving friend over the centuries of the US's existence. (To put it mildly)

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:02 am 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Once again you'll note how comfortable the Leftists are with violence as long as it's politically correct violence.


Include me out of that stereotype.

Will somebody please tell me whether they think that people who go on a counter-demonstration against a procession of heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists are obliged to turn up with no defensive protection, not even a helmet, and, should they be attacked, to respond by doing no more than saying in a reasonable tone of voice 'Oh spare me! Have pity!!'.

Or what should they do? Not annoy the heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists by expressing any criticism of them in a noticeable way - stay at home and leave the streets to the neo-Nazis?

I'd really like to know. That's why, like beastie, I keep asking the question. Is pacifist non-resistance the only permissible means of opposing neo-Nazis on the streets?


I dunno. Let me google that for you:

what + are + pacifist + ways + of + protesting

Lesseeeeee. I need some ideas because I'm unoriginal.... Lesseeeee... Whattawegot...

http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/resou ... ethods.php

Quote:
198 Methods of Nonviolent Action.

Practitioners of nonviolent struggle have an entire arsenal of "nonviolent weapons" at their disposal. Listed below are 198 of them, classified into three broad categories: nonviolent protest and persuasion, noncooperation (social, economic, and political), and nonviolent intervention. A description and historical examples of each can be found in volume two of The Politics of Nonviolent Action by Gene Sharp.


The Methods of Nonviolent Protest and Persuasion

Formal Statements

1. Public Speeches
2. Letters of opposition or support
3. Declarations by organizations and institutions
4. Signed public statements
5. Declarations of indictment and intention
6. Group or mass petitions

Communications with a Wider Audience

7. Slogans, caricatures, and symbols
8. Banners, posters, and displayed communications
9. Leaflets, pamphlets, and books
10. Newspapers and journals
11. Records, radio, and television
12. Skywriting and earthwriting

Group Representations

13. Deputations
14. Mock awards
15. Group lobbying
16. Picketing
17. Mock elections

Symbolic Public Acts

18. Displays of flags and symbolic colors
19. Wearing of symbols
20. Prayer and worship
21. Delivering symbolic objects
22. Protest disrobings
23. Destruction of own property
24. Symbolic lights
25. Displays of portraits
26. Paint as protest
27. New signs and names
28. Symbolic sounds
29. Symbolic reclamations
30. Rude gestures

Pressures on Individuals

31. "Haunting" officials
32. Taunting officials
33. Fraternization
34. Vigils

Drama and Music

35. Humorous skits and pranks
36. Performances of plays and music
37. Singing

Processions

38. Marches
39. Parades
40. Religious processions
41. Pilgrimages
42. Motorcades

Honoring the Dead

43. Political mourning
44. Mock funerals
45. Demonstrative funerals
46. Homage at burial places

Public Assemblies

47. Assemblies of protest or support
48. Protest meetings
49. Camouflaged meetings of protest
50. Teach-ins

Withdrawal and Renunciation

51. Walk-outs
52. Silence
53. Renouncing honors
54. Turning one’s back

The Methods of Social Noncooperation

Ostracism of Persons

55. Social boycott
56. Selective social boycott
57. Lysistratic nonaction
58. Excommunication
59. Interdict

Noncooperation with Social Events, Customs, and Institutions

60. Suspension of social and sports activities
61. Boycott of social affairs
62. Student strike
63. Social disobedience
64. Withdrawal from social institutions

Withdrawal from the Social System

65. Stay-at-home
66. Total personal noncooperation
67. "Flight" of workers
68. Sanctuary
69. Collective disappearance
70. Protest emigration (hijrat)

The Methods of Economic Noncooperation: Economic Boycotts
Actions by Consumers

71. Consumers’ boycott
72. Nonconsumption of boycotted goods
73. Policy of austerity
74. Rent withholding
75. Refusal to rent
76. National consumers’ boycott
77. International consumers’ boycott

Action by Workers and Producers

78. Workmen’s boycott
79. Producers’ boycott

Action by Middlemen

80. Suppliers’ and handlers’ boycott
Action by Owners and Management

81. Traders’ boycott
82. Refusal to let or sell property
83. Lockout
84. Refusal of industrial assistance
85. Merchants’ "general strike"

Action by Holders of Financial Resources

86. Withdrawal of bank deposits
87. Refusal to pay fees, dues, and assessments
88. Refusal to pay debts or interest
89. Severance of funds and credit
90. Revenue refusal
91. Refusal of a government’s money

Action by Governments

92. Domestic embargo
93. Blacklisting of traders
94. International sellers’ embargo
95. International buyers’ embargo
96. International trade embargo

The Methods of Economic Noncooperation: The Strike
Symbolic Strikes

97. Protest strike
98. Quickie walkout (lightning strike)

Agricultural Strikes

99. Peasant strike
100. Farm Workers’ strike

Strikes by Special Groups

101. Refusal of impressed labor
102. Prisoners’ strike
103. Craft strike
104. Professional strike

Ordinary Industrial Strikes

105. Establishment strike
106. Industry strike
107. Sympathetic strike

Restricted Strikes

108. Detailed strike
109. Bumper strike
110. Slowdown strike
111. Working-to-rule strike
112. Reporting "sick" (sick-in)
113. Strike by resignation
114. Limited strike
115. Selective strike

Multi-Industry Strikes

116. Generalized strike
117. General strike

Combination of Strikes and Economic Closures

118. Hartal
119. Economic shutdown

The Methods of Political Noncooperation
Rejection of Authority

120. Withholding or withdrawal of allegiance
121. Refusal of public support
122. Literature and speeches advocating resistance

Citizens’ Noncooperation with Government

123. Boycott of legislative bodies
124. Boycott of elections
125. Boycott of government employment and positions
126. Boycott of government departments, agencies, and other bodies
127. Withdrawal from government educational institutions
128. Boycott of government-supported organizations
129. Refusal of assistance to enforcement agents
130. Removal of own signs and placemarks
131. Refusal to accept appointed officials
132. Refusal to dissolve existing institutions

Citizens’ Alternatives to Obedience

133. Reluctant and slow compliance
134. Nonobedience in absence of direct supervision
135. Popular nonobedience
136. Disguised disobedience
137. Refusal of an assemblage or meeting to disperse
138. Sitdown
139. Noncooperation with conscription and deportation
140. Hiding, escape, and false identities
141. Civil disobedience of "illegitimate" laws

Action by Government Personnel

142. Selective refusal of assistance by government aides
143. Blocking of lines of command and information
144. Stalling and obstruction
145. General administrative noncooperation
146. Judicial noncooperation
147. Deliberate inefficiency and selective noncooperation by
enforcement agents
148. Mutiny

Domestic Governmental Action

149. Quasi-legal evasions and delays
150. Noncooperation by constituent governmental units
International Governmental Action
151. Changes in diplomatic and other representations
152. Delay and cancellation of diplomatic events
153. Withholding of diplomatic recognition
154. Severance of diplomatic relations
155. Withdrawal from international organizations
156. Refusal of membership in international bodies
157. Expulsion from international organizations

The Methods of Nonviolent Intervention
Psychological Intervention

158. Self-exposure to the elements
159. The fast
a) Fast of moral pressure
b) Hunger strike
c) Satyagrahic fast
160. Reverse trial
161. Nonviolent harassment

Physical Intervention

162. Sit-in
163. Stand-in
164. Ride-in
165. Wade-in
166. Mill-in
167. Pray-in
168. Nonviolent raids
169. Nonviolent air raids
170. Nonviolent invasion
171. Nonviolent interjection
172. Nonviolent obstruction
173. Nonviolent occupation

Social Intervention

174. Establishing new social patterns
175. Overloading of facilities
176. Stall-in
177. Speak-in
178. Guerrilla theater
179. Alternative social institutions
180. Alternative communication system

Economic Intervention

181. Reverse strike
182. Stay-in strike
183. Nonviolent land seizure
184. Defiance of blockades
185. Politically motivated counterfeiting
186. Preclusive purchasing
187. Seizure of assets
188. Dumping
189. Selective patronage
190. Alternative markets
191. Alternative transportation systems
192. Alternative economic institutions

Political Intervention

193. Overloading of administrative systems
194. Disclosing identities of secret agents
195. Seeking imprisonment
196. Civil disobedience of "neutral" laws
197. Work-on without collaboration
198. Dual sovereignty and parallel government

Source: Sharp, Gene. The Politics of Nonviolent Action (3 Vols.), Boston: Porter Sargent, 1973. Provided courtesy of the Albert Einstein Institution.


Pick one or more that doesn't get you beat or shot. Pick one or more that disempowers them. Pick one that doesn't escalate toward physical conflict.

Let me know if you'd like me to google more solutions to you that doesn't involve retardery.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Once again you'll note how comfortable the Leftists are with violence as long as it's politically correct violence.


Include me out of that stereotype.

Will somebody please tell me whether they think that people who go on a counter-demonstration against a procession of heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists are obliged to turn up with no defensive protection, not even a helmet, and, should they be attacked, to respond by doing no more than saying in a reasonable tone of voice 'Oh spare me! Have pity!!'.

Or what should they do? Not annoy the heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists by expressing any criticism of them in a noticeable way - stay at home and leave the streets to the neo-Nazis?

I'd really like to know. That's why, like beastie, I keep asking the question. Is pacifist non-resistance the only permissible means of opposing neo-Nazis on the streets?




Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

I dunno. Let me google that for you:

what + are + pacifist + ways + of + protesting

[...]

Pick one or more that doesn't get you beat or shot. Pick one or more that disempowers them. Pick one that doesn't escalate toward physical conflict.

[...]



I didn't ask you that. I asked, in essence, whether people who go on a counter-demonstration against heavily equipped and violent, angry people are obliged to go on the demonstration without defensive equipment, and to offer no resistance if attacked.

All you say above is 'try not to get attacked'. Wow, that's really helpful. Pretty well the only way to ensure that is to leave the heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists alone on the streets. History suggests that is not a great idea.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Well, what's your solution?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Will somebody please tell me whether they think that people who go on a counter-demonstration against a procession of heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists are obliged to turn up with no defensive protection, not even a helmet, and, should they be attacked, to respond by doing no more than saying in a reasonable tone of voice 'Oh spare me! Have pity!!'.

Or what should they do? Not annoy the heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists by expressing any criticism of them in a noticeable way - stay at home and leave the streets to the neo-Nazis?

I'd really like to know. That's why, like beastie, I keep asking the question. Is pacifist non-resistance the only permissible means of opposing neo-Nazis on the streets?

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well, what's your solution?

- Doc

I am asking the question (and in fact have asked it multiple times without a response) because you seem so deeply dissatisfied and bitterly critical of the way that the counter-demonstrators have conducted themselves. Presumably you must have some idea of how you would wish them to act, or your criticisms would make little sense.

What is your preferred mode of behavior for counter-demonstrators facing likely physical threats if they upset the neo-Nazis by effective counter-protest?

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Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:16 pm 
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198 Methods of Nonviolent Action wrote:
...
169. Nonviolent air raids
170. Nonviolent invasion
...


I'm so curious about these two options.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Chap wrote:
Will somebody please tell me whether they think that people who go on a counter-demonstration against a procession of heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists are obliged to turn up with no defensive protection, not even a helmet, and, should they be attacked, to respond by doing no more than saying in a reasonable tone of voice 'Oh spare me! Have pity!!'.

Or what should they do? Not annoy the heavily equipped and aggressively chanting white racist nationalists by expressing any criticism of them in a noticeable way - stay at home and leave the streets to the neo-Nazis?

I'd really like to know. That's why, like beastie, I keep asking the question. Is pacifist non-resistance the only permissible means of opposing neo-Nazis on the streets?

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well, what's your solution?

- Doc

I am asking the question (and in fact have asked it multiple times without a response) because you seem so deeply dissatisfied and bitterly critical of the way that the counter-demonstrators have conducted themselves. Presumably you must have some idea of how you would wish them to act, or your criticisms would make little sense.

What is your preferred mode of behavior for counter-demonstrators facing likely physical threats if they upset the neo-Nazis by effective counter-protest?

Calm down, Chap. Man you really seem mentally distressed right now. One wonders why you can barely contain your rage theses days. I do hope you get some help for that.

Anyway, I've literally posted my answer already. What a shame you have exactly zero character to offer the same. Not surprising, really.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What a shame you have exactly zero character to offer the same.

Can someone please translate this into English, please? I know it's supposed to be insulting in some way, of course. But I'm curious to know how, exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What a shame you have exactly zero character to offer the same.

Can someone please translate this into English, please? I know it's supposed to be insulting in some way, of course. But I'm curious to know how, exactly.


Oh my. Your barely contained rage is on display again, Chap. Do get some help for that.

Let me re-word that for you. You are unoriginal and have no thoughts beyond critiquing a post. You also lack the internal processes that generate solutions to a perceived problem. It's not very helpful when trying to figure out why you shouldn't attack a person who is carrying a gun.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Let me re-word that for you. You are unoriginal and have no thoughts beyond critiquing a post. You also lack the internal processes that generate solutions to a perceived problem. It's not very helpful when trying to figure out why you shouldn't attack a person who is carrying a gun.

- Doc


By "attack" do you mean physically, or "attack" as in shout back at them?

Because my impression is that Chap, like I was earlier, is trying to focus the discussion on nonantifa, peaceful protesters.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Hi Beastie,

Well. Let me count the ways I wouldn't antagonize a group of men, armed or not:

1- I wouldn't scream hysterically at them. Tempers usually flare when that happens.

2- I wouldn't employ sound making devices that are painful to hear or could cause hearing damage.

3- I wouldn't ignite aerosol and try to burn their flags or point it in their direction.

4- I wouldn't impede or block their movement to their protest site. Red rover is fun when you're a kid. Not so much as an adult.

5- I wouldn't throw things at them, especially anything that could cause pain or injury.

6- I wouldn't destroy city or private property.

7- I certainly wouldn't attack the police trying to keep the peace. You kind of want them on your side.

----------

Things I'm uncomfortable with, but I think are fair game and potentially effective:

1- Let them know their faces are being catalogued and their identities disseminated for public consumption. Tie them to their activism forever.

2- Boycott or shun them, to include notifying friends, family, and employers. Let others decide if associating with German National Socialists is in their interest or not.

-----------

Things I'm comfortable with:

1- Befriending the younger ones. Have a cup of coffe and hang out. A lot of these guys are socially isolated and maybe some chess, a video game, or a meal might show both of you you're a lot more alike than not. It's hard to hate a friend.

2- I like that making a donation in their name thing someone posted. That's clever and results in a charity getting some money. Let them know everytime they show their faces in public a charity they don't like is getting a donation.

3- Working with a municipality so violence is avoided.

4- Mocking them in funny or clever ways. There is a ton of content you can find online that is awesome. Europe has this one on lockdown. Somethjng like showing up with signs out of left field, say like, Steve Jobs Ate at Taco Bell or Joe Montanna is NOT Hannah's Father. It makes the whole thjng a farce, and you'll just confuse them.

5- Have a bbq. Say their rally is at a park with an evil terrible statue. Just have a huge bbq, invite a thousand friends, have an awesome bbq, and pretend their rally isn't happening. The smell will be very distracting and more enticing than some dip ____ monologuing.

I mean, there are a million ways you can show up, do your thing, and avoid violence. You just need to be clever and savvy. Film it all, and edit it in your favor. You'll look awesome and you get a unifying message across.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Hi Beastie,

Well. Let me count the ways I wouldn't antagonize a group of men, armed or not:

1- I wouldn't scream hysterically at them. Tempers usually flare when that happens.

2- I wouldn't employ sound making devices that are painful to hear or could cause hearing damage.

3- I wouldn't ignite aerosol and try to burn their flags or point it in their direction.

4- I wouldn't impede or block their movement to their protest site. Red rover is fun when you're a kid. Not so much as an adult.

5- I wouldn't throw things at them, especially anything that could cause pain or injury.

6- I wouldn't destroy city or private property.

7- I certainly wouldn't attack the police trying to keep the peace. You kind of want them on your side.

----------

Things I'm uncomfortable with, but I think are fair game and potentially effective:

1- Let them know their faces are being catalogued and their identities disseminated for public consumption. Tie them to their activism forever.

2- Boycott or shun them, to include notifying friends, family, and employers. Let others decide if associating with German National Socialists is in their interest or not.

-----------

Things I'm comfortable with:

1- Befriending the younger ones. Have a cup of coffe and hang out. A lot of these guys are socially isolated and maybe some chess, a video game, or a meal might show both of you you're a lot more alike than not. It's hard to hate a friend.

2- I like that making a donation in their name thing someone posted. That's clever and results in a charity getting some money. Let them know everytime they show their faces in public a charity they don't like is getting a donation.

3- Working with a municipality so violence is avoided.

4- Mocking them in funny or clever ways. There is a ton of content you can find online that is awesome. Europe has this one on lockdown. Somethjng like showing up with signs out of left field, say like, Steve Jobs Ate at Taco Bell or Joe Montanna is NOT Hannah's Father. It makes the whole thjng a farce, and you'll just confuse them.

5- Have a bbq. Say their rally is at a park with an evil terrible statue. Just have a huge bbq, invite a thousand friends, have an awesome bbq, and pretend their rally isn't happening. The smell will be very distracting and more enticing than some dip ____ monologuing.

I mean, there are a million ways you can show up, do your thing, and avoid violence. You just need to be clever and savvy. Film it all, and edit it in your favor. You'll look awesome and you get a unifying message across.

- Doc


Good points. Actually, I think it's mainly antifa engaging in the things you object to. (although antifa mainly outs and shames white supremacists, their aggression at rallies gets more attention but isn't their main tactic)

The nonantifa protesters, as far as I can tell (fog of war makes it difficult to figure out after the fact) weren't engaging in the objectionable activities. They still felt threatened, and several of them truly believed their lives would have been in danger, had not antifa been there.

I truly don't know the answer to this. But I think the one thing that is clear - ban weapons at protests - will never happen in this country. So basically, we're going to continue having these episodes. IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:00 pm 
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We'll have to disagree on antifa. I think they attack mostly peaceful Conservative events. For example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 0079d43489

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:26 am 
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beastie wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Let me re-word that for you. You are unoriginal and have no thoughts beyond critiquing a post. You also lack the internal processes that generate solutions to a perceived problem. It's not very helpful when trying to figure out why you shouldn't attack a person who is carrying a gun.

- Doc


By "attack" do you mean physically, or "attack" as in shout back at them?

Because my impression is that Chap, like I was earlier, is trying to focus the discussion on nonantifa, peaceful protesters.


Thanks for saving me the trouble of explaining. But I think that DrC is perfectly aware of my position in reality: it's just that (while he is certainly not stupid) he can't be bothered to deal with a discussion in which the issues are not black and white, with clearly defined good guys and bad guys, so he can feel OK about pretend swearing, and insulting people a lot. That's his idea of fun, I suppose.

He said something about this aspect of his posting in another thread:

viewtopic.php?p=1078039#p1078039

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
But be advised I'm just a guy, an average schmuck, and I take my thoughts on these matters about as seriously as you'd expect someone who spends the few minutes to crap out an opinion, like I do, does.


Footnote: I think the term 'antifa' is potentially confusing. There is no objective way of saying who is 'antifa' and who is not. Thus it gets used by people like DrC as a term basically meaning 'people who I don't approve of who go on anti-fascist demonstrations'. Presumably your creation 'nonantifa' would mean 'people who I do approve of who go on anti-fascist demonstrations'. In this thread these terms seem to act as pseudo-descriptors that conceal value-judgements, and I suggest that we'd be better off doing without them and simply saying what we mean directly.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:49 am 
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Apparently it's being used by the Department of Homeland Security along with the Department of Justice, too. Such a shame Chap is seething with rage that he can't accept reality for what it is. I do hope he gets help for that. Poor man.

http://www.newsweek.com/are-antifa-terrorists-658396

Quote:
The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has formally classified the activities of anti-fascist groups (antifa) as “domestic terrorist violence” since early 2016, according to confidential law enforcement documents obtained by Politico and interviews.

Federal authorities have reportedly warned state and local officials the antifa has become “increasingly confrontational” in efforts to thwart white supremacist groups.

Newly disclosed documents show authorities believed “anarchist extremists” were the main cause of violence at a number of public rallies. A confidential 2016 joint intelligence assessment by DHS and the FBI blamed the antifa for attacks on a range of targets, including police, government institutions and symbols of “the capitalist system.”

According to Politico, interviews showed federal authorities really became cognizant of the antifa amid the rise of Donald Trump, and law enforcement officials have claimed Trump’s rhetoric and policies helped catalyze left-wing extremism in the U.S.

One senior law enforcement official reportedly stated, “It was in that period [as the Trump campaign emerged] that we really became aware of them. These antifa guys were showing up with weapons, shields and bike helmets and just beating the ____ out of people.... They’re using Molotov cocktails, they’re starting fires, they’re throwing bombs and smashing windows."

Law enforcement officials have apparently been taken aback by the swift rise of the antifa, about which they still have much to learn, and have struggled to come up with an organized response.

The dynamics of the antifa are complex. It claims to have no leaders or hierarchy, but officials believe members coordinate through a decentralized network of cells, Politico reports.

The FBI and DHS were reportedly unwilling to elaborate on any of this to Politico, given the materials the publication obtained were never supposed to be publicly disclosed.

Anti-fascist groups have been around for decades, some emerging during the early part of 20th century. But it wasn’t until the recent tragic events in Charlottesville, Virginia, that the antifa became a larger part of public discourse.

President Donald Trump controversially blamed the violence that occurred in Charlottesville on “many sides,” and has contended the media hasn’t focused enough on the role the antifa played.

On this subject, it is worth noting the only death in Charlottesville occurred when a white nationalist—not a member of the antifa—plowed his car into a group of counterprotesters. What occurred has been characterized as domestic terrorism by Attorney General Jeff Sessions, a designation the president does not seem to share.


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The antifa’s overall aim is to resist fascism—the name is fairly self-explanatory—and it claims to embrace values of anti-capitalism, anti-racism and anti-authoritarianism.

Many on the left can get on board with these principles, but also take issue with tactics the antifa is seemingly willing to employ as it works toward its stated goals (primarily what are known as “black bloc” tactics).


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In short, there are some on the left who might agree with the antifa’s supposed desired ends, but aren’t willing to endorse the antifa’s apparent embrace of violence.

As The Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf recently wrote, “It is an easy call for me to denounce antifa members who participate in or endorse extralegal violence. That does not contradict my simultaneous judgment that antifa’s stated end of resisting fascism is laudable. If they showed up in force to protest Nazi rallies, but refrained from initiating the use of force, using it only lawfully in self-defense, I would have nothing but praise for them.”

Noam Chomsky, one of the most revered intellectuals on the left, recently referred to the violence perpetrated by the antifa as “wrong in principle, and tactically self-destructive,” and “a major gift to the right.”

Trevor Noah, host of The Daily Show, echoed these sentiments on Thursday night. “When you think you’re punching Nazis, you don’t realize that you’re also punching your cause,” Noah said. “Because your opponents will just use every violent incident to discredit your entire movement.”

Even as people like Noah criticize the antifa, there still seems to be a general unease among liberals and progressives with drawing a direct parallel between the antifa and neo-Nazis (the alt-right), as some feel Trump did following Charlottesville.

Meanwhile, many on the right took no issue with Trump’s assessment of Charlottesville and feel the media hasn’t gone far enough to condemn the antifa.

After Charlottesville, Joe Walsh, a former congressman turned right-wing talk-show host, tweeted, “Those Antifa counterprotesters in Charlottesville are every bit as hateful & anti-American as the white supremacists. Print that media.”

Speaking about the antifa on Thursday night, Tucker Carlson of Fox News said, “They hate this country. They want to tear it down.”

“Even if they didn’t use violence, antifa would still be illegitimate and a threat to America,” Carlson added.

In a recent article for the conservative-leaning National Review titled, “The Roots of Left-Wing Violence,” Ian Tuttle wrote, “Under the aegis of ‘anti-fascism,’ leftist thugs have appointed themselves adjudicators of the fates of Richard Spencer, Heather Mac Donald, the limo owner or Trump voter—anyone they ‘don’t like’—and in this lawless realm, whatever crimes antifa commit are not crimes, and their victims are not victims.”

Americans clearly have very mixed feelings about the antifa, an entity that seems poised to play an increasingly active role in the Trump era. With that said, it seems the more the antifa becomes associated with violence, the more likely it is to be vilified by both the media and the general public.


I'm mystified by how cozy my Leftist comrades on this site are with this organization.

- Doc

eta: I'll assert that I'm the one that lives in the grey area on these topics, not painting everything as Nazi vs. Revolutionaries or Black vs. White. I've repeatedly stated the human condition is complex and we need to treat it as such.

Also, I reject the notion that I'm not stupid. I'm pretty ____ ing dense, tbh.

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