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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:45 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Beastie,

For Christ's sake. They both weren't issued a permit to protest in the same exact spot at the same time. C'mon. I feel like you're being deliberately difficult.


- Doc


You don't have to be issued a permit to be in the same space as a rally, and I assume you agree that the counter-protesters have the right to free speech as well.

I think you and Jersey Girl's solutions are to stay home, trust law enforcement, or hire private security.

Staying home and pretending that ignoring bullies makes them go away is foolish.

Trusting law enforcement can also be foolish, as history has so kindly shown.

Most people can't afford to hire private security simply to counter protest at a rally. And then if the private security became violent, they'd still be blamed.

But, you know, more discussion won't resolve this, that's clear. We will just have to be satisfied to scratch our heads at bemusement at one another, because I find your solutions as unsatisfying as you find my responses. You think I'm being "difficult", I think you're being wildly unrealistic.

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Last edited by beastie on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:46 pm 
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beastie wrote:
I feel like Jersey Girl's answer is stay home.


How can you even say that? I just said it (for yet another time) in the post I just posted above.

Quote:
There likely would have been no conflict, had the counter protestors simply shown up at their own location and carried out whatever their agenda was that day.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
There likely would have been no conflict, had the counter protestors simply shown up at their own location and carried out whatever their agenda was that day.

You're right, I forgot that suggestion. Stay in your assigned area.

I don't think Martin Luther King followed that advice.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:49 pm 
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beastie wrote:

I think you and Jersey Girl's solutions are to stay home, trust law enforcement, or hire private security.


That resembles exactly nothing I have posted on this thread. If you'd like to show me where you got that idea from in my posts, I'd love to see it.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Beastie,

What's your solution since you're crapping all over mine and implying that it's cool to break the law because, you know, Martin Luther King.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
beastie wrote:

I think you and Jersey Girl's solutions are to stay home, trust law enforcement, or hire private security.


That resembles exactly nothing I have posted on this thread. If you'd like to show me where you got that idea from in my posts, I'd love to see it.


I was referring to both you and cam, who seem to be in agreement. Cam's post were right above or below yours, I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Beastie,

What's your solution since you're crapping all over mine and implying that it's cool to break the law because, you know, Martin Luther King.

- Doc


Number one, I think that no weapons of any kind should be allowed at these rallies.

Other than that, I don't really know the answer. I've said that repeatedly. What I am objecting to is you and Jersey Girl acting as if the right answer is so self evident that people who disagree with you are difficult, or stupid, or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:06 pm 
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beastie wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
There likely would have been no conflict, had the counter protestors simply shown up at their own location and carried out whatever their agenda was that day.

You're right, I forgot that suggestion. Stay in your assigned area.

I don't think Martin Luther King followed that advice.

Who cares what he followed? I don't know why you're ignoring the obvious. I honestly don't.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:

Who cares what he followed? I don't know why you're ignoring the obvious. I honestly don't.


I thought the fact that you invoked him earlier in this thread (as rolling over in his grave) meant that you were holding him up as a model for the counter protesters. That's why I've been referring to him.

You know what's funny? I don't even know what you think is obvious. Obviously I completely misunderstood your intent in bringing up Martin Luther King, so I think we're just talking past one another.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:13 pm 
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I do think that Cam's position is far more nuanced than mine could ever be, but hey, I take the short road home. Here is my position so you can't miss it.

Stand back...I'm gonna hurl it right out to you.

Who the ____ in their right mind, shows up to counter protest, confront and antagonize ARMED ____ NAZI'S, carrying pepper spray and water balloons????

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
I do think that Cam's position is far more nuanced than mine could ever be, but hey, I take the short road home. Here is my position so you can't miss it.

Stand back...I'm gonna hurl it right out to you.

Who the ____ in their right mind, shows up to counter protest, confront and antagonize ARMED ____ NAZI'S, carrying pepper spray and water balloons????


Well, that's what I thought your position was. I'm not sure why you objected to my characterization of it above.

People all throughout history engage in acts due to an inner moral compulsion that the rest of us find crazy. Sometimes it was crazy and pointless. But sometimes it changes history.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:24 pm 
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beastie wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
I do think that Cam's position is far more nuanced than mine could ever be, but hey, I take the short road home. Here is my position so you can't miss it.

Stand back...I'm gonna hurl it right out to you.

Who the ____ in their right mind, shows up to counter protest, confront and antagonize ARMED ____ NAZI'S, carrying pepper spray and water balloons????


Well, that's what I thought your position was. I'm not sure why you objected to my characterization of it above.

People all throughout history engage in acts due to an inner moral compulsion that the rest of us find crazy. Sometimes it was crazy and pointless. But sometimes it changes history.


And sometimes it's plainly stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:33 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
And sometimes it's plainly stupid.


There are people who believe fascism is an existential threat to civilization. These people believe it is imperative that large numbers of people show up to counter protest when the fascists decide to rally.

I'm not in a position to judge whether or not that's stupidity.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:34 pm 
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beastie wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
And sometimes it's plainly stupid.


There are people who believe fascism is an existential threat to civilization. These people believe it is imperative that large numbers of people show up to counter protest when the fascists decide to rally.

I'm not in a position to judge whether or not that's stupidity.


And they could have done it at their scheduled time in their legally permitted park.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:

And they could have done it at their scheduled time in their legally permitted park.


They had every right to counter protest in that park.

Once more:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... cb92c9b283

Quote:
Charlottesville spokeswoman Miriam I. Dickler told Moyer that only one permit was issued for Emancipation Park — the one received by white nationalists staging the “Unite the Right” rally. However, counterprotesters did not need permits to protest that rally, she said.

“Please bear in mind that people do not need a permit to enter a public park, even when another event is scheduled to take place there, nor are they required to have one to be on streets or sidewalks adjacent to or outside the park,” Dickler said in an email.


You can still insist it was stupid, but you ought to drop the "legally permitted" bit.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:52 pm 
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beastie wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:

And they could have done it at their scheduled time in their legally permitted park.


They had every right to counter protest in that park.

Once more:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... cb92c9b283

Quote:
Charlottesville spokeswoman Miriam I. Dickler told Moyer that only one permit was issued for Emancipation Park — the one received by white nationalists staging the “Unite the Right” rally. However, counterprotesters did not need permits to protest that rally, she said.

“Please bear in mind that people do not need a permit to enter a public park, even when another event is scheduled to take place there, nor are they required to have one to be on streets or sidewalks adjacent to or outside the park,” Dickler said in an email.


You can still insist it was stupid, but you ought to drop the "legally permitted" bit.


Didn't you say they had permits to assemble in two other parks?

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Yes they did, but that doesn't mean they acted illegally by protesting in the same park with the Nazis. They were legally entitled to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:16 pm 
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beastie wrote:
Yes they did, but that doesn't mean they acted illegally by protesting in the same park with the Nazis. They were legally entitled to do that.


When I use the phrase "legally permitted" I'm referring to the permits that they had in hand for their own use.

I never once said that they acted illegally. There's no reason to raise that particular issue with me when I've already addressed the use of wisdom in exercising one's rights to assemble and counter protest.

In any case, I think I'm done here. Thanks for hashing this out with me.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:58 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I don't like getting into Slippery Slope arguments. That being said it is a good question as to when Civil Obedience becomes not so civil.


Are you using the term "civil disobedience" in the way that Thoreau addressed it, C's? I'm not entirely sure how it's being used in this thread since I've only read just a few additional posts today.

Are we talking about non-violent civil disobedience or that which includes force and violence?

ETA: Forgot something. I think if we're talking about civil disobedience that includes force and violence, we're not talking about civil disobedience at all in the way that I understand it.


I don't know the answer. I don't want to see a return of the violence that so scarred the 1960's, but see the need for the right to peaceable assembly to petition the government for a redress of grievances. How do we maintain that balance so that everyone gets heard, and stay safe?


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:52 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Who the ____ in their right mind, shows up to counter protest, confront and antagonize ARMED ____ NAZI'S, carrying pepper spray and water balloons????


There might be a range of motives for taking part in a demonstration against a Nazi march. Just like some people join a Nazi demonstration because they are hoping for a chance to do violence and get away with it, there might be people with the same motives on the other side. The police are there to deal with that kind of thing, of course, and it is a difficult job.

But I would say that a substantial number of people, probably the great majority, who take the risk of participating in a counter-demonstration to a Nazi march could most justly be characterised as brave people with a sense of history, who remember what happened last time Nazis were allowed to take over the streets unopposed. They don't go there hoping for violence

BTW, why do you have to post in a way that suggests you are swearing a lot? You know, all that '____' stuff? Do you think it will make your posts somehow more sincere and convincing? But this is a discussion board. Only evidence and argument really works here.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:09 am 
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The cure for bad speech isn't censorship, let alone violence. It is more good speech. When we respond in kind we give them what they want most of all.


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