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 Post subject: The Pardon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:48 pm 
God

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So police can now ignore federal court orders and violate basic civil rights if they swear fealty to Trump.

This is enough to be a high crime for impeachment. It's an abuse of authority that sets a horrible precedent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:56 pm 
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CFR

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:57 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
So police can now ignore federal court orders and violate basic civil rights if they swear fealty to Trump.

This is enough to be a high crime for impeachment. It's an abuse of authority that sets a horrible precedent.


So what do you think will happen now?

GOP lawmakers turn a blind eye as usual?

It is certainly to energize his racist base, but I can't imagine this helping his poll numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:04 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
CFR

A high crime as the term is used in the Constitution is a severe abuse of authority by an official of the government. If you need basic American government refresher, I'm sure there are many fine classes you can take.

If you are asking for a reference to explain to you what an abuse of authority is and why this would qualify, I don't think you understand what references do and don't do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
So police can now ignore federal court orders and violate basic civil rights if they swear fealty to Trump.

This is enough to be a high crime for impeachment. It's an abuse of authority that sets a horrible precedent.


So what do you think will happen now?

GOP lawmakers turn a blind eye as usual?

It is certainly to energize his racist base, but I can't imagine this helping his poll numbers.

He's not getting impeached over this. The question is how much that fact erodes the rule of law and our democracy.

Best case scenario is it is treated as a one off ugly moment never to be repeated. Sub has not been issued his talking points yet, but blah blah Mark Rich will probably be included. This is so much worse, but you hope it gets treated like that.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Legally there is no defined meaning of the term Abuse of Power. Aside from the President getting a blow job, and lying about it. So it is really up to Congress to decide if it is impeachable or not. SEE http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#! ... mpeachment.
Also of interest is “This is the crime that Trump is suggesting he might pardon: willful defiance of a federal judge’s lawful order to enforce the Constitution,” explained Prof. Noah Feldman. “Such a pardon would reflect outright contempt for the judiciary, which convicted Arpaio for his resistance to its authority. Trump has questioned judges’ motives and decisions, but this would be a further, more radical step in his attack on the independent constitutional authority of Article III judges.”


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:48 am 
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The CCC wrote:
... “This is the crime that Trump is suggesting he might pardon: willful defiance of a federal judge’s lawful order to enforce the Constitution,” explained Prof. Noah Feldman. “Such a pardon would reflect outright contempt for the judiciary, which convicted Arpaio for his resistance to its authority. Trump has questioned judges’ motives and decisions, but this would be a further, more radical step in his attack on the independent constitutional authority of Article III judges.” ...


Sums it up. It used to be 'Use violence on opponents who heckle during my campaign rallies, and I'll pay your legal expenses". But now it's "Commit crimes I approve of, or that my base vote approves of, and now I am the President I'll just go right ahead and pardon you!".

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:00 am 
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If anyone is interested in a thorough summary of Arapio's crimes /u/UrbanGrid puts all together for you :

https://np.reddit.com/r/BlueMidterm2018 ... e/dm4xget/

This is a man that needs to answer for his crimes and Mr. Trump just gave him the ultimate hall pass.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:28 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
If anyone is interested in a thorough summary of Arapio's crimes /u/UrbanGrid puts all together for you :

https://np.reddit.com/r/BlueMidterm2018 ... e/dm4xget/

This is a man that needs to answer for his crimes and Mr. Trump just gave him the ultimate hall pass.

- Doc


The Phoenix Times also put together a good list:

https://twitter.com/phoenixnewtimes/status/901263384087334914

The ACLU has the best quick summary I've seen for someone who doesn't want to read a ton of articles:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... ial-pardon

It can't be stressed enough that Trump is pardoning law enforcement for ignoring the courts and violating constitutional rights. That's not an incidental effect here. It's the intent. It's a legitimate Constitutional crisis. It's a backdoor way of crippling the Bill of Rights. This is ample reason to remove him from office, but our Constitutional framers didn't anticipate blinding partisanship.

Right now, it's a one off event. You have to hope it stays that way and Arpiao is just an exception because he was a birther ally of Trump's early on. If it were to become a pattern, without hyperbole that's what tyranny looks like.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:56 am 
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If you want an even shorter version:

Ran concentration camps. Tortured prisoners to the point killing them. Targeted Latinos due to their race and illegally detained them. Used law enforcement resources to investigate and go after critics, including arresting them. Diverted resources away from sex abuse investigations for political pursuits leading to hundreds of neglected cases. Staged an assassination attempt for political sympathy and framed someone for it. Ignored the courts.

...


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:16 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
The Phoenix Times also put together a good list:

https://twitter.com/phoenixnewtimes/status/901263384087334914

The ACLU has the best quick summary I've seen for someone who doesn't want to read a ton of articles:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... ial-pardon

It can't be stressed enough that Trump is pardoning law enforcement for ignoring the courts and violating constitutional rights. That's not an incidental effect here. It's the intent. It's a legitimate Constitutional crisis. It's a backdoor way of crippling the Bill of Rights. This is ample reason to remove him from office, but our Constitutional framers didn't anticipate blinding partisanship.

Right now, it's a one off event. You have to hope it stays that way and Arpiao is just an exception because he was a birther ally of Trump's early on. If it were to become a pattern, without hyperbole that's what tyranny looks like.


Those are great links. I lived in Arizona on and off throughout my military career and was very familiar with his tactics. The guy is just straight up a sadist and the fact that he was elected over and over again really underscores something deeply troubling within the Arizonan mindset, and I'd probably extrapolate that to the American mindset.

Terrible analogy, but I'll give it a shot. If you were to impound a stray dog and abuse it while it's in captivity what kind of animal are you getting? It can never be integrated back into society, and will in fact look at everyone and everything else with malice. Our prisons should be places of humanity because you're taking people who run the gamut of life experiences and choices that led them there. Common sense dictates you don't turn loose on society people who are punished over and over again within a system that you designed. You're going to return to society people who understand that society itself hates them, abused them when they had a chance to show humanity, and then magically expects them to be normal and productive.

Sure, there a lot of fellas who never want to return to prison. But what do you do with people who are destroyed by the system? Who are felons and are basically given the civil death sentence? And I'm not talking about the child rapists and sadistic murderers out there. I'm talking about people who have a genuine shot and reintegrating into our world, but are so ____ ed over that they can NEVER reintegrate because it's virtually impossible to do so. It's inhumane.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:12 am 
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We are very good at making prisoners hate prison. We are not so good at giving them the skills necessary to stay away from prison.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:04 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
He's not getting impeached over this. The question is how much that fact erodes the rule of law and our democracy.

Best case scenario is it is treated as a one off ugly moment never to be repeated. Sub has not been issued his talking points yet, but blah blah Mark Rich will probably be included. This is so much worse, but you hope it gets treated like that.

Spare us the hyperbole, there was no more threat to democracy here than the countless pardons issued by Presidents in the past.
This pardon simply is another politically shiny object for childish protestor to chase after. You guys are so scattered and so hysterical it's no wonder that none of you have an actual platform, policy, or candidate that is attractive to the adult population.
Note the reality that most people agree with this situation, don't they?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:08 am 
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The CCC wrote:
We are very good at making prisoners hate prison. We are not so good at giving them the skills necessary to stay away from prison.

Prison is intended to be punitive and to expect it to be a last resort education system is reflective of the attitude that actually contradicts a notion of "hating" the place. In reality it's a poor excuse for a person to not acquire "away from prison skills" while in the free world.
Criminals should serve time not be served by time...you have an antiquated view of the prison system - but that's no surprise

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what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:33 am 
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It is no suprise you are a Stupid Troll. I've never claimed that doing away with all punishment will work. What we do know as fact is that while punishment does extinguish bad behaviors it can not replace them with good behaviors over time.
SEE https://www.verywell.com/what-is-punishment-2795413


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Here's a fun list of notorious Presidential pardons:

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-e ... rdons.aspx

From the list a couple of notable reminders for our board:

Quote:
Last Minute

President Clinton exercised his pardon power frequently and granted 396 pardons during his two terms in office. One that generated criticism was the pardon issued on his last day as president in 2001 to Marc Rich. Rich was indicted in 1983 for 51 counts of tax fraud and evading $48 million in taxes and had been living in Switzerland as a fugitive. After Clinton left office, it was reported that Rich's ex-wife had made sizable campaign contributions and donations to the Clinton Presidential Library.

Polygamy

In 1893, President Benjamin Harrison issued an unusual act of clemency, with a mass pardon to all members of the Church of Latter Day Saints. The pardon covered all members who committed an act of polygamy and came after the leadership of the Mormon Church disavowed this controversial practice.

It's conceivable that the Founding Fathers were not worried about giving one individual such absolute authority, as the U.S. Constitution as originally written specified only treason, piracy, and counterfeiting as federal crimes. After more than 200 years of growth in the government, approximately 4,500 criminal offenses are under the jurisdiction of the federal government.


The Democrats really should've nominated Bernie. The Clintons were filthy.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

The Democrats really should've nominated Bernie. The Clintons were filthy.

- Doc


Exactly!

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:53 pm 
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HUH?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Jesus H Christ. This makes twice in one day Doc has completely diverted the intended topic of a thread on page one. Who gives a fuk about what Clinton did 25 years ago? The fact is Donald Trump just pardoned a notorious racist whose crimes go well beyond bigotry towards minorities, and as Senator McCain pointed out, he has shown absolutely no remorse or regret for his actions. This means he'll do it again if given the chance. He's not viewed as someone who has made a mistake and has paid his debt to society. His supporters view him as a martyr and a hero who will keep fighting the good fight, even if that means breaking the law. Because Trump has Pardon powers and will bail him out.

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Last edited by Kevin Graham on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:24 pm 
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What about what Obama did this year?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

Quote:
The voices Obama heeded instead were those of activists including celebrities such as Lin-Manuel Miranda and South Africa's Bishop Desmond Tutu, the latter of whom said that Lopez Rivera's only crime was "conspiring to free his people from the shackles of imperial injustice." Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., referred to Lopez Rivera, bizarrely, as "one of the longest-serving political prisoners in history — 34 years, longer than Nelson Mandela."


Weirdly Marxist comments by those two regarding the freed American terrorist Lopez Rivera.

The point of my posts, for those not following, is virtually every President has controversial, and in more than a few cases, filthy pardons on their hands.

And we basically forget about it within a week or so, it seems.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Shariff Joe doesn't qualify for a Pardon, DOJ Guidelines
SEE https://www.justice.gov/pardon/rules-go ... e-clemency


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