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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:00 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
The left critiques of free speech rights and nonviolent tactics frequently avoid engaging with the question of consequences.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/08/ ... d-violence

Thanks for that link. The sentiments expressed by Nathan Robinson resonate with my own views on this subject pretty much exactly. Before we try to "fight fire with fire", we had better be awfully darned certain that no other viable option remains.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:08 am 
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The CCC wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well. One of us actually lived on Redstone Arsenal, Chap. One of us is probably well versed in its history and the tenants that work there. One of us might've talked to dozens of high-ranking personnel, and received dozens of overviews of their history and programs.

Also, one of us had a FIL who worked at Los Alamos, and one of us might've been there at least a dozen times for professional reasons, have talked to dozens of high-ranking personnel, and received dozens of overviews of their history and programs.

And I'm pretty sure Nazis helped that along, too.

But what do I know? I'm just a guy ____ posting on the Internet.

- Doc


I lived on Redstone Arsenal in the mid 60's. It was an interesting time. My dad in the Air Force, working for NASA, living on an Army Post in the mid 60's in Huntsville Alabama. My father negotiated the contracts and supervised the compliance to those contracts to build the Saturn Rockets while there. No the NAZIS didn't put us on the moon. That would be the American Robert H. Goddard builder of the first liquid fluid rocket. The NAZIS using Von Braun built the V1 and V2 rockets. The V2 which we later used to amplify and greatly improve our rocket and space programs.

Werner Von Braun surrendered to the Allies and was held until after the war. In Operation Paperclip


I dispatched to Redstone. Surely that counts for something.

Okay, maybe not.

;-)

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:08 am 
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I believe that people become radicalized, or extremist, because they're searching for three very fundamental human needs: identity, community, and a sense of purpose.

But what happens is, because there are so many marginalized young people, so many disenfranchised young people with not a lot to believe in, with not a lot of hope, they tend to search for very simple black-and-white answers. I'd argue this is just a condition of the human condition, but I digress...

Because of the Internet, we now have this propaganda machine that is flooding the Internet with conspiracy theory propaganda from the both ends of the spectrum ~ disinformation ~ and when a young person who feels disenchanted, or disaffected, goes online, where most of them live, they're able to find that identity online.

They're able to find that community, and they're able to find that purpose that's being fed to them by savvy recruiters who understand how to target vulnerable people, most of them young.

But they're all being fooled, because the organizers at the top have their agendas. They're broken ideologies that can never work, that in fact, are destroying people's lives more than the promise that they were given of helping the world or, or in the fat kid's case, saving his heritage.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:50 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
The left critiques of free speech rights and nonviolent tactics frequently avoid engaging with the question of consequences.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/08/ ... d-violence

Thanks for that link. The sentiments expressed by Nathan Robinson resonate with my own views on this subject pretty much exactly. Before we try to "fight fire with fire", we had better be awfully darned certain that no other viable option remains.

I agree, and appreciated his article a lot myself. We can't ask too many questions of ourselves as we face these issues.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:56 am 
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beastie wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious that we're not really hearing each other on this thread. For example, I don't think anyone is asserting that antifa is not willing to use violence. They are.

So I will just invite anyone honestly interested and having mixed feelings (like me) to listen to this episode of IA on NPR:

http://the1a.org/audio/#/shows/2017-08- ... 859/@00:00

My brief take-away is that this is a complex issue, and those on either side (the side that says protests must always be peaceful and the side that said fascism must be dealt with by people willing to use aggression) who insist that the answer is clear are misguided.

One of the panelists has studied antifa and recently published a book about it. His position was that antifa is correct in asserting that fascism, for various reasons, is an existential threat to cultures. They are also correct, based on past history, that reason and working within peaceful restraints have not worked in the past. They are also correct in that fascism, historically, has always started in small groups and then spread, which is why they are devoted to targeting even the small groups. They are also correct in asserting that their violence is defensive, even when preemptive, due to the special threat of fascism. They are also correct that the police are not always there promptly or act wisely, sometimes due to their own bias.

The other panelist has studied the issue as well and asserts that it's counter productive for groups fighting fascism to use violence or destruction of property, because they lose the support of the larger culture.

It was a fascinating episode, even though I admit I still haven't resolved the issue in my mind.

And btw, those who insist that the problem was people violating the terms of their permits have forgotten that this country has a long history of civil disobedience as a form of protest.

Hi beastie -

I started listening to this before going to bed last night and ended up not finishing it, mostly because I was tired and drifting off. I was wondering if it becomes a true panel discussion later in the episode because what I had heard before stopping was what seemed to be the author on the books on the Antifa being interviewed by the host. I was interested in hearing a discussion so if it moves to a panel-discussion format later I'll be interested in finishing it. If it's mainly interviews with two people separately who have the views you summarized above I might not as it seems similar to many of the articles I've read on the issue.

I am very interested in hearing this debated by thoughtful parties, though, so if anyone is aware of such a discussion that they would recommended I'd be very appreciative of the recommendation.

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 Post subject: Racist Antifa Punches Black Trump Supporter in Face
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:21 am 
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The Black man was defenseless and the racist RadLeftist punched him in the face:

https://www.mediaite.com/online/black-t ... ona-melee/

The RadLeft showing their true colors, as always.

eta: Could you imagine if a Trump supporter were caught on camera popping a Black 'protester' in the face? The ree'ing would never stop.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:39 am 
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White supremacists beat unarmed black man nearly to death in Charlotteville Virginia attack.
SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK3IeG5Dz5U


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:04 am 
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RadLeftist tells rape victims to shut their mouths for the sake of diversity:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/23/mp-shares ... y-6872181/

Quote:
A Labour mission president has been criticised for sharing a Twitter post telling Rotherham sex abuse victims to ‘shut their mouths for the good of diversity’.

Quote:
Naz Shah, who represents Bradford West, shared and liked a post tweeted out from a parody account of newspaper columnist Owen Jones.


Ms Shah’s comments come just days after she attacked fellow Labour mission president Sarah Champion for speaking out about the Rotherham sex scandal in article.
In the letter, published in The Sun, Ms Shah accused Ms Champion’s comments of being ‘blanket, racialised loaded statements’ which stigmatised the Pakistani community.


Later the RadLeftists, much liker her Soviet-era counterparts spewing anti-Semitic invective was:

Quote:
Ms Shah was suspended by the Labour Party in 2016 for making anti-semitic comments online.


- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:15 am 
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If you don't think the Democratic Party isn't infiltrated with RadLeftists and anti-Semites you're willfully ignorant. Funny how RadLeftists get a pass, but President Trump is guilty, huh? Since we're super obsessed with neo-Nazis and Trump catering to them let's take a look at RadLeftists in the Democratic Party who are clearly anti-Semitic?

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/n ... is-elected

Quote:
Ellison has a long history of sordid association with anti-Semitism. He worked with and repeatedly defended one of a handful of the most notorious and public anti-Semites in our country: The Reverend Louis Farrakhan. And worked with Farrakhan at the very time this anti-Semite was publicly describing Judaism as a “gutter religion” and insisting that the Jews were a primary force in the African slave trade.

Ellison has publicly stated that he was unaware of Farrakhan’s anti-Semitism. That is not a credible statement. Everyone was aware of Farrakhan’s anti-Semitism. Farrakhan did not try to hide it. Indeed, he proclaimed it on every occasion. Ellison is either lying or he willfully blinded himself to what was obvious to everyone else. Neither of these qualities makes him suitable to be the next chairman of the DNC.

Moreover, Ellison himself has made anti-Semitic statements. A prominent lawyer, with significant credibility, told me that while he was a law student, Ellison approached her and said he could not respect her, because she was a Jew and because she was a woman who should not be at a law school. This woman immediately disclosed that anti-Semitic and anti-feminists statement to her husband and friends, and I believe she is telling the truth.

Ellison’s anti-Semitism is confirmed by his support for another anti-Semite, Stokely Carmichael.

When there were protests about Carmichael’s speaking at the University of Minnesota, Ellison responded that: “The University's position appears to be this: Political Zionism is off-limits no matter what dubious circumstances Israel was founded under; no matter what the Zionists do to the Palestinians; and no matter what wicked regimes Israel allies itself with — like South Africa. This position is untenable."

But the connections are more recent as well. In 2009, Ellison headlined a fundraiser for Esam Omeish, a former candidate for Virginia state delegate who had told Palestinians that “the jihad way is the way to liberate your land.”

With regard to Israel, Ellison was one of only a small number of Congress people who recently voted against funding the Iron Dome, a missile system used by Israel to protect its civilians against rocket attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah. His voting record with regard to the Nation State of the Jewish people is among the very worst in Congress.

Ellison is now on an apology tour as he runs for DNC chairman, but his apologies and renunciations of his past association with anti-Semitism have been tactical and timed to his political aspirations.

He first claimed to realize that Farrakhan was an anti-Semite when he ran for office in 2006 seeking Jewish support. His claim to be a supporter of Israel was timed to coincide with his run for the chairmanship of DNC. I do not trust him. I do not believe him. And neither should centrist liberal supporters of Israel and opponents of anti-Semitism.

The DNC has a momentous choice this weekend. It can move the party in the direction of Jeremy Corbyn’s labor party in England, in the hope of attracting Jill Stein Green Party voters and millennials who stayed home. In doing so they would be giving up on any attempt to recapture the working class and rust-belt voters in the mid-western states that turned the Electoral College over to Donald Trump.

Jeremy Corbyn today could not get elected dog catcher in Great Britain. I do not want to see the Democratic Party relegated to permanent minority status as a hard-left fringe.

Remember what happened when the Democrats moved left by nominating George McGovern, Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis — all good men. The total combined electoral votes for these candidates would not have won a single election. There is no reason to think the country has moved so far to the left since those days that the Democrats can win by pushing even further in the direction of the hard left. The self-destructive election of Keith Ellison will be hard to undo for many years.

So, tomorrow, the Democrats must choose between electing Ellison or keeping centrist liberals, who support Israel, like me and many others in their party. I hope they choose wisely. But if they do not, I have made my choice.

Alan M. Dershowitz is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law, Emeritus, at Harvard Law School and author of “Taking the Stand: My Life in the Law” and “Electile Dysfunction: A Guide for the Unaroused Voter.”


In case anyone is unfamiliar with Alan Dershowitz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:54 am 
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And here is more RadLeftist propaganda infecting the minds of our youth:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/calexit-is-a-blo ... 1798336205

http://blackmaskstudios.com/calexit/

Yep. A totally uncoordinated and organic movement is happening to just protest the Trump presidency and his soft support of White Nationalists... :rolleyes:

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:02 pm 
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OK. I give up. The US is about to be taken over by Communists.

Forget Trump and the people who voted for him. Forget Bannon, Breitbart, white racist nationalists, the KKK, and rest of the alt-right.

It's all explained here:


Image

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Hur hur. I'll just keep staring into my huge blind spot because I'm a partisan hack. Derp derp. Pikchurs aren't realz. Feelz are realz. Derp derp. I'm Chap. Derp. Rayzists. Derp. Nazis. Derp. Derpity. Only Conservo White malez. Derp. Violenze. Derp derp. I juz say stuff. Derp.

You RadLeftists are such hypocrites. One of you people could put a bullet in someone's brain on 5th Avenue and you'd still find a way to dismiss it and blame a Republican.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:14 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
Hi beastie -

I started listening to this before going to bed last night and ended up not finishing it, mostly because I was tired and drifting off. I was wondering if it becomes a true panel discussion later in the episode because what I had heard before stopping was what seemed to be the author on the books on the Antifa being interviewed by the host. I was interested in hearing a discussion so if it moves to a panel-discussion format later I'll be interested in finishing it. If it's mainly interviews with two people separately who have the views you summarized above I might not as it seems similar to many of the articles I've read on the issue.

I am very interested in hearing this debated by thoughtful parties, though, so if anyone is aware of such a discussion that they would recommended I'd be very appreciative of the recommendation.


They were each given time to explain their position and then there was interaction between them, callers, and people who texted/emailed statements or comments.

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 Post subject: Re: Racist Antifa Punches Black Trump Supporter in Face
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
The Black man was defenseless and the racist RadLeftist punched him in the face:

https://www.mediaite.com/online/black-t ... ona-melee/

The RadLeft showing their true colors, as always.

eta: Could you imagine if a Trump supporter were caught on camera popping a Black 'protester' in the face? The ree'ing would never stop.

- Doc


You really do suck at this don't you if you read your own article it says, and you can see from the video as well, that the punch only happened when the driver of the vehicle suddenly turned into the sidewalk and everybody was freaking out thinking he was going to run over the protesters.

And yes Trump supporters punch black people all the time but I don't see you freaking out about it for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
You RadLeftists are such hypocrites. One of you people could put a bullet in someone's brain on 5th Avenue and you'd still find a way to dismiss it and blame a Republican.

- Doc

Is this a show of solidarity with LDSfaqs? Lest you forget, only Trump has that 5th Avenue immunity and only in the eyes of his followers that eschew moral considerations for the sake of party politics and wild eyed orneriness.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:24 am 
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There was a person I put bullets into and that was the one pointing a gun at me. I have no idea as to his politics.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:12 pm 
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beastie wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
Hi beastie -

I started listening to this before going to bed last night and ended up not finishing it, mostly because I was tired and drifting off. I was wondering if it becomes a true panel discussion later in the episode because what I had heard before stopping was what seemed to be the author on the books on the Antifa being interviewed by the host. I was interested in hearing a discussion so if it moves to a panel-discussion format later I'll be interested in finishing it. If it's mainly interviews with two people separately who have the views you summarized above I might not as it seems similar to many of the articles I've read on the issue.

I am very interested in hearing this debated by thoughtful parties, though, so if anyone is aware of such a discussion that they would recommended I'd be very appreciative of the recommendation.


They were each given time to explain their position and then there was interaction between them, callers, and people who texted/emailed statements or comments.

Having listened to it, I second your recommendation. It's a good discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:26 am 
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41047166

Quote:
Germany bans RadLeft protest website over G20 riots


Quote:
Germany has banned a RadLeft internet portal accused of inciting violence and rallying activists who rioted during last month's G20 summit in Hamburg.

It is now a crime to continue using the site, linksunten.indymedia, Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière said.

Police have seized computers and some weapons in raids on addresses of activists in the south-western Baden-Wuerttemberg region.

Dozens of anti-capitalist protesters clashed with police during the G20.

In a tweet, the German interior ministry described the portal as "the central communications platform among RadLeft extremists prone to violence".

It said the site was used to exchange tips about violent protest methods and to spread "anti-constitutional extreme left-wing content".

In Friday's police raids, German broadcaster ARD said, knives, batons, piping and slingshots were seized.

A banning instruction forces internet service providers (ISPs) to block a particular website, such that users trying to access it see an error message or an official warning.

Sometimes websites take evasive action by switching to a proxy server abroad or by using the internet privacy tool Tor.

In Hamburg, nearly 200 police officers were injured in clashes with masked protesters in early July.

Under the slogan "Welcome to hell", protesters looted shops, torched cars and threw stones and petrol bombs at police, who tried to disperse them with water cannon and baton charges.


Image

Hrm. From Charleston:

Image

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:35 am 
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Hrm. Noam Chomsky is in my camp on this one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 06406.html

A "major gift to the Right," "often wrong in principle," and "generally self-destructive."

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:22 am 
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DocCam -

It's not that radical leftists can be a dangerous force. Just the other day I heard someone I would describe that way arguing that any form of violence perpetrated against fascists is inherently an act of self-defense, so antifa cannot be wrong in committing violence.

The problem with your the thrust of your reasoning is in not understanding the relative influence and size of true blue radical leftists in America versus right-wing authoritarians. One is a dominant force in a major political party that runs most of the country. The other is a goofy fringe with a tiny political footprint outside of some cloistered college campuses.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:44 am 
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Quote:
The other is a goofy fringe with a tiny political footprint outside of some cloistered college campuses.


Precisely, except they have no political footprint. Every time I see video footage of these idiots I laugh at the idea that people actually view them as some kind of threat. Mostly a bunch of college kids, many of whom are female, pretending to be menacing.

And it is funny how we never had ANTIFA issues during Bush or Obama, but suddenly when we have a fascist for a President they feel the need to get organized. Gee, wonder why? It is almost as if getting rid of ANTIFA could be as easy as getting rid of Trump.


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