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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Aaaaand it's starting to happen. Now a Southerner who dresses in Confederate garb and wants to honor his family's legacy is a terrorist. This kid was also kicked out of college. We all know the best way to change someone's mind is to literally keep them ignorant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wbqq271nZ8&app=desktop

The RadLeft is garbage.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
You're just as extreme as the Rabid Right is. You have no room for nuance, only hateful rhetoric. Shame on you.


Oh, I thought I was supposed to be some kind of caricature of tea-sipping nannyish over-subtle gentility. Now it's 'hateful rhetoric' is it? Waddya know? Whatever floats your boat.

Still, I suppose I can imagine Mary Poppins goose-stepping round Kensington Gardens while she teaches her young charges the Horst Wessel song.


Oh, no. Don't misunderstand me. You're most definitely a dandified board nanny, but much like Dolores Umbridge you hide a very controlling personality simmering just below a claret and pink veneer. No doubt you're a Burnley fan, too.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:18 pm 
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I don't know. Maybe I'm, you know, just not reading the tea leaves correctly...

Oh. Wait.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/08/1 ... n-statues/

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Watch: CNN commentator calls for the removal of Washington and Jefferson statues


If you don't think for a second the RadLeft has a Marxist agenda you're up in the night. A fat kid is a terrorist for dressing up like a Confederate soldier. And now they're demanding we take down Washington and Jefferson.

But I'm the crazy one.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Aaaaand it's starting to happen. Now a Southerner who dresses in Confederate garb and wants to honor his family's legacy is a terrorist. This kid was also kicked out of college. We all know the best way to change someone's mind is to literally keep them ignorant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wbqq271nZ8&app=desktop

The RadLeft is garbage.

- Doc



There's a another video of the same event that says he's holding an AR 15, so I'm clueless as to figure out what was going on exactly. I'm not sure if that's relevant to your comment.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
There's a another video of the same event that says he's holding an AR 15, so I'm clueless as to figure out what was going on exactly. I'm not sure if that's relevant to your comment.


It's in the video, too. He has a right to carry an AR-15. Virginia is a 'gold star' open carry state:

http://www.opencarry.org/state-info-t-z/virginia/

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:42 pm 
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I think they're calling him a terrorist because he's armed to the teeth and are interpreting that as threatening violence for the benefit of his political viewpoint.

You can argue with this, but it is a different argument than some poor kid just trying to honor his family's legacy. He wasn't at a civil war reenactment. Let's be clear about the context so you aren't strawmanning the issue. This is occurring in an environment where white supremacists are rallying to Confederate statues to preserve them because the statues were built to honor a rebellion in defense of just that. Just because he says he wants to honor his heritage doesn't mean we have to infantalize him and assume he's incapable of appreciating what his actions mean.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:57 pm 
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I am curious about the reasoning that goes you can't criticize the person defiantly carrying an AR-15 and a handgun to protest because it is an open-carry state and therefore legal, but you can criticize a crowd for calling him a terrorist at that protest even though it is within their legal rights to do so.

Why is the standard for his gun-brandishing merely "technically legal" while we can judge the crowd by the propriety of their speech even if it is legal?


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:20 pm 
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I think you can criticize the guy. That's not the issue. Screaming in his face, flipping him the bird, and then his school giving him the boot is probably the best way to radicalize the individual. I'd prefer education and relationship building.

I mean it worked for the Nazis we brought over to build us rockets. It worked for the black guy who has deconverted KKK types. Never met anyone willing to change their mind after getting flipped off, though.

I mean. Look at the kid. He obviously doesn't get out much.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:38 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I think they're calling him a terrorist because he's armed to the teeth and are interpreting that as threatening violence for the benefit of his political viewpoint.

You can argue with this, but it is a different argument than some poor kid just trying to honor his family's legacy. He wasn't at a civil war reenactment. Let's be clear about the context so you aren't strawmanning the issue. This is occurring in an environment where white supremacists are rallying to Confederate statues to preserve them because the statues were built to honor a rebellion in defense of just that. Just because he says he wants to honor his heritage doesn't mean we have to infantalize him and assume he's incapable of appreciating what his actions mean.


They aren't "calling" him a terrorist. They're getting up in his face, flipping him off in his face, and shouting at him in his face and others are doing so from just a few feet away.

What is the purpose of that?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I think you can criticize the guy. That's not the issue. Screaming in his face, flipping him the bird, and then his school giving him the boot is probably the best way to radicalize the individual. I'd prefer education and relationship building.

I mean it worked for the Nazis we brought over to build us rockets. It worked for the black guy who has deconverted KKK types. Never met anyone willing to change their mind after getting flipped off, though.

I mean. Look at the kid. He obviously doesn't get out much.

- Doc

I don't think you are having a productive dialogue with a college student who dresses up in confederate clothes, gets a Confederate battle flag, straps on an AR-15 and handgun, and goes into the environment he does to signal his support for monuments honoring confederate leaders and the cause they fought for. That's naïve. There's no intellectual debate that's going to happen. You can't be Daryl Davis right then and there. If he's getting deradicalized, it's elsewhere.

I don't agree with him being expelled from his school, though I think it is factually challenged if you think he's facing such severe disapprobation because was simply honoring his historical family.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:

They aren't "calling" him a terrorist. They're getting up in his face, flipping him off in his face, and shouting at him in his face and others are doing so from just a few feet away.

What is the purpose of that?


To signal their disagreement with him and demonstrate a lack of fear. Are their actions all that hard to read?

The weird thing about this comment is that him being closely flipped off was widely celebrated, but hyperbolic labeling him a terrorist falls in the grey area of what's proper. I get why they did it. The dude showed up with weapons in support of a statue that legitimately represents terror. That you see it in the reverse is strange. It's a protest.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:21 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:

They aren't "calling" him a terrorist. They're getting up in his face, flipping him off in his face, and shouting at him in his face and others are doing so from just a few feet away.

What is the purpose of that?


To signal their disagreement with him and demonstrate a lack of fear. Are their actions all that hard to read?

The weird thing about this comment is that him being closely flipped off was widely celebrated, but hyperbolic labeling him a terrorist falls in the grey area of what's proper. I get why they did it. The dude showed up with weapons in support of a statue that legitimately represents terror. That you see it in the reverse is strange. It's a protest.


My questions are:

What does the behavior accomplish?
Does it solve a problem?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Quote:
That you see it in the reverse is strange.


EAllusion you are mistaken that I see it in the reverse. I simply attempted to correct your description that they were "calling" him anything. They weren't simply calling him a terrorist, they were shouting it in his face.

That's why I replied to your post.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
My questions are:

What does the behavior accomplish?
Does it solve a problem?


Like any form of public shaming, it's meant to signal to others viewing it what's socially acceptable. It's not necessarily about the dude who looks like his cosplaying a mash-up of a gamer-gater and a neo-confederate. The people going to counter-protest are probably after that and an opportunity to express their contempt for people like him. They might not necessarily be able to articulate that, but that's almost certainly what it is about.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:44 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
My questions are:

What does the behavior accomplish?
Does it solve a problem?


Like any form of public shaming, it's meant to signal to others viewing it what's socially acceptable. It's not necessarily about the dude who looks like his cosplaying a mash-up of a gamer-gater and a neo-confederate. The people going to counter-protest are probably after that and an opportunity to express their contempt for people like him. They might not necessarily be able to articulate that, but that's almost certainly what it is about.


Instead of public shaming shout fest, why not begin a dialogue with the young man? Why not begin with an inquiry?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:47 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I don't think you are having a productive dialogue with a college student who dresses up in confederate clothes, gets a Confederate battle flag, straps on an AR-15 and handgun, and goes into the environment he does to signal his support for monuments honoring confederate leaders and the cause they fought for. That's naïve. There's no intellectual debate that's going to happen. You can't be Daryl Davis right then and there. If he's getting deradicalized, it's elsewhere.

I don't agree with him being expelled from his school, though I think it is factually challenged if you think he's facing such severe disapprobation because was simply honoring his historical family.


I agree with you to a certain extent. In the moment it would be a waste of time to try to have a conversation with him. Everyone is mugging for their social media. It's nonsense.

He needs to be befriended and exposed to other people and a variety of ideas. That's why kicking him out of school is a terrible idea. He needs to have a few coffees or meals with non-psychopaths who are willing to just have a friendly exchange. Even if he doesn't shift much, it's harder to view the Other as an enemy when you've broken bread with them.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:

Instead of public shaming shout fest, why not begin a dialogue with the young man? Why not begin with an inquiry?


For the same reason you don't have productive dialogues with Bach? It's just naïve to expect that from the situation. Again, the idea is to say to others this is outside the bounds of decent human behavior. By telling him he's appalling and unwanted, they are saying being like him is appalling and unwanted.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:05 pm 
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The left critiques of free speech rights and nonviolent tactics frequently avoid engaging with the question of consequences.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/08/ ... d-violence

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Was he honoring his Confederate legacy of this with his AR-15?
SEE http://www.civilwarmo.org/educators/res ... guerrillas

Guerrilla warfare went on in Missouri for most of the Civil War. Bands of pro-South men would hunt and kill Union soldiers and pro-Union civilians.
William Quantrill and Bill Anderson were perfect examples of guerrilla leaders. Their campaigns during the war characterize how unique the Civil War was in Missouri.

William Quantrill was born in Ohio and became a schoolteacher. He moved to Kansas and then Missouri.
When the Civil War broke out, Quantrill became the leader of a band of some 400 guerrillas organized into smaller groups. They terrorized Union soldiers, moving quickly and sneakily.
Most famously, Quantrill led a raid on Lawrence, Kansas, where he burned and murdered fathers and sons in a brutal fashion.
Eventually, Quantrill was killed in a conflict in Kentucky following the end of the Civil War. His legacy is a statement to the fiercely divided loyalties of Missourians during the war. He is remembered as a brutal murderer by some, and as a defender against Federal aggression by others.

William Quantrill was born in Ohio and became a schoolteacher. After travels to Utah, Quantrill resided in Lawrence, Kansas. While it is unclear how or why, sometime during this period Quantrill developed a radical hatred of anti-slavery men and women in Kansas known as Jayhawkers. His hatred compelled him to work secretly to gain the trust of a band of Jayhawkers so that in 1858 he could help trap them in an ambush, where he helped in the killing of three.

When the Civil War broke out, Quantrill became the leader of a band of some 400 guerrillas. They terrorized Union soldiers, moving quickly and stealthily. Most famously, Quantrill led a raid on Lawrence, Kansas, where he burned and murdered fathers and sons in a brutal fashion.

Eventually, Quantrill was killed in a conflict in Kentucky following the end of the Civil War. His legacy is a statement to the fiercely divided loyalties of Missourians during the war. He is remembered as a brutal murderer by some, and as a defender against Federal aggression by others.

Bill Anderson was born in Randolph County, Missouri, in 1840. In 1862, after General Sterling Price was driven from Missouri, Bill Anderson joined William Quantrill’s band of Bushwhackers.
In 1864 he broke from Quantrill after a dispute and went on to terrorize Missouri with an independent band.
Most notable was his attack at Centralia, Missouri, where he ran into about 20 Union soldiers on leave. He had them stripped, murdered, and mutilated.
He was finally killed in October 1864 when a group of Union soldiers led by Colonel Samuel P. Cox found him and shot him from his horse. The brutality of Bloody Bill’s gang was infamous. Members like Frank and Jesse James would continue on and become legendary after the war’s end.

Bill Anderson was born in Randolph County, Missouri, in 1840. In 1862, after General Sterling Price was driven from Missouri, Anderson joined William Quantrill’s band of Bushwhackers. He participated in the raid on Lawrence, Kansas, in retribution for the loss of his sister when a federal prison collapsed—which he believed had been done purposely. It is reported that after the death of his sister, Anderson, who became known as “Bloody Bill Anderson,” became ruthless. Earlier he had been known to release prisoners after he killed all the Union soldiers he caught. He was said to have decorated his horse with the skulls of those he killed, and marked each kill with a knot in a silken cord.

In 1864 he broke from Quantrill after a dispute and went on to terrorize Missouri with an independent band. Most notable was his attack at Centralia, Missouri, where he found about 20 Union soldiers on leave. He had them stripped, murdered, and mutilated. He then defeated a band of 120 Union Calvary that was sent to pursue him.

He finally met his demise in October 1864 when a group of Union soldiers led by Colonel Samuel P. Cox found him and shot him from his horse. The brutality of Bloody Bill’s gang, with such infamous members as Frank and Jesse James, would continue on and become legendary after the war’s end.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:40 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I think you can criticize the guy. That's not the issue. Screaming in his face, flipping him the bird, and then his school giving him the boot is probably the best way to radicalize the individual. I'd prefer education and relationship building.

I mean it worked for the Nazis we brought over to build us rockets. It worked for the black guy who has deconverted KKK types. Never met anyone willing to change their mind after getting flipped off, though.

I mean. Look at the kid. He obviously doesn't get out much.

- Doc

I don't think you are having a productive dialogue with a college student who dresses up in confederate clothes, gets a Confederate battle flag, straps on an AR-15 and handgun, and goes into the environment he does to signal his support for monuments honoring confederate leaders and the cause they fought for. That's naïve. There's no intellectual debate that's going to happen. You can't be Daryl Davis right then and there. If he's getting deradicalized, it's elsewhere.

I don't agree with him being expelled from his school, though I think it is factually challenged if you think he's facing such severe disapprobation because was simply honoring his historical family.


That's about right, I'd say.

Of course, if this guy has a radical new plan to send a group of heavily armed astronauts to stop Jews and blacks oppressing the white race on Mars, he should definitely be made Deputy Director of NASA without further delay. I mean, rocket science, dontcha' know? That stuff is a game-changer in how you should treat Nazis. DrC explained it so clearly a bit up the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:53 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:

Instead of public shaming shout fest, why not begin a dialogue with the young man? Why not begin with an inquiry?


For the same reason you don't have productive dialogues with Bach? It's just naïve to expect that from the situation. Again, the idea is to say to others this is outside the bounds of decent human behavior. By telling him he's appalling and unwanted, they are saying being like him is appalling and unwanted.



FWIW I don't think I made myself clear enough.

ETA: And, I just did it again, didn't I? I'm sorry, I multitask. Almost every time you see me posting here, I'm doing something else at the same time. I don't attempt to have a productive dialogue with Bach because Bach's a non-serious psycho troll. With the young man in question, he is likely locked into a perspective when he doesn't know other perspectives and viewpoints even exist. What I'm suggesting is that people not get up in his face. I'm suggesting something more along the lines of observing him from a distance and then catching up with him later, if possible, when he goes "off duty" or watching for him in the neighborhood. Approaching him in an non-threatening way...Hey, buddy, weren't you the guy in front of the memorial? Tell me your story" and in doing so, take a shot at establishing some kind of friendly non-judgmental dialogue, moving forward from there if time and interest on his part will allow it.

I think confronting him in the way that he was, isn't teaching him a damn thing other than feeding the stereotypes that are already in his head, and he's only going to double down to protect them and his ideology. Of course, I can't read his mind.

I don't think that change begins with a confrontation. I think that real change begins with a relationship. A relationship that opens a person up, not shuts him down.

But don't go by me.

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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

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