Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Jersey Girl wrote:5 Monopoly bucks says that when the investigations are over, there IS no collusion found between Trump himself or the Trump campaign people and Russia.

None.


I think think it is likely that Trump himself did not know what was going on. But I think there is a lot of dark area that needs to see light before I would be sanguine about there not being any collusion.

I think you might see a connection between some of the data software from Trump associates and how fake news was distributed. I also think it is quite possible that there could be some linkage between Paul Manafort and the push to change the GOP platform concerning Russian and the Ukraine. And Jared Kushner's 666 5th Avenue deal may be the address of the devil, but more importantly it represents an albatross liability for Kushner. Remember Chris Christie sent Kushner's father to jail for illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion and witness tampering. I'm not saying he the same as his father, but the New York commercial real estate market can bring pressure to bear that could cause a man to bend.

I'm not saying these are the specific things that happened. But those are topics that I would like answered fully before I would dismiss this.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:5 Monopoly bucks says that when the investigations are over, there IS no collusion found between Trump himself or the Trump campaign people and Russia.

None.


I think think it is likely that Trump himself did not know what was going on.


So do I.

But I think there is a lot of dark area that needs to see light before I would be sanguine about there not being any collusion.


I was reluctant to include his campaign staff. I did so anyway.

I think you might see a connection between some of the data software from Trump associates and how fake news was distributed. I also think it is quite possible that there could be some linkage between Paul Manafort and the push to change the GOP platform concerning Russian and the Ukraine. And Jared Kushner's 666 5th Avenue deal may be the address of the devil, but more importantly it represents an albatross liability for Kushner. Remember Chris Christie sent Kushner's father to jail for illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion and witness tampering. I'm not saying he the same as his father, but the New York commercial real estate market can bring pressure to bear that could cause a man to bend.

I'm not saying these are the specific things that happened. But those are topics that I would like answered fully before I would dismiss this.


This is why I continually say here, that the investigations need to leave no stone unturned, investigate every issue (collusion, ties to Russia, etc.--tax returns if those can ever be turned over via subpoena) and that we won't know until the investigations are complete.

All of this is speculation on our part.
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_Chap
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:All of this is speculation on our part.



'All of this'? We are talking in a context where the appropriate criteria of judgement are not those of strict formal logic, nor of proof in a criminal or even civil court. This is a discussion board, where I suggest that most people will find it reasonable to apply the criteria of practical judgement.

Example. You buy milk. You put it in the refrigerator. You come back a few hours later and the bottle is nearly empty. You have a room-mate. Practical judgement says 'Very likely my room-mate drank the milk'. There is however no strict logical deduction, and a good defence attorney could almost certainly avoid a criminal conviction. Civil liability? Perhaps, but not certain.

However, if anybody said to you 'Your are just speculating about your room-mate drinking the milk', you would at least raise an eyebrow. I think that applies to the attitude you are taking to the present situation.
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_The CCC
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _The CCC »

At this point I can not say that Drumpf is guilty. It could just be a series of odd coincidences. So I agree with Jersey Girl. But possibility is not probability. There is more than enough information to conduct a thorough investigation. That if, and when, substantiated can remove Drumpf from office.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

The CCC wrote:At this point I can not say that Drumpf is guilty. It could just be a series of odd coincidences. So I agree with Jersey Girl. But possibility is not probability. There is more than enough information to conduct a thorough investigation. That if, and when, substantiated can remove Drumpf from office.


Call it wishful thinking, but I'm hoping that they can manage to get his tax returns in the process. The "no stone left unturned" as I mentioned previously.
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_subgenius
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _subgenius »

Chap wrote:'All of this'? We are talking in a context where the appropriate criteria of judgement are not those of strict formal logic, nor of proof in a criminal or even civil court. This is a discussion board, where I suggest that most people will find it reasonable to apply the criteria of practical judgement.

first - discussion board vs find it reasonable - these two ideas have proven to not co-exist
second - you specifically admit "reasonable" as being possible after dismissing that a judgment is formed by a logical process - such a contradiction affirms the note above following "first". In effect you said - "logic does not apply here because most people are logical"....or did you have another magical recipe by which people conjure up "reasonable" conclusions?


Chap wrote:Example.

Ahh, the old reliable metaphor/simile/anecdote tactic...seems like a logical next step for your argument....or is it?

Chap wrote: You buy milk. You put it in the refrigerator. You come back a few hours later and the bottle is nearly empty. You have a room-mate. Practical judgement says 'Very likely my room-mate drank the milk'. There is however no strict logical deduction, and a good defence attorney could almost certainly avoid a criminal conviction.

You left out reasonable details...like a milk mustache on the roommate, or if the roommate actually admitted/denied drinking the milk.
Nevertheless there is a strict logical deduction to be made....it does not necessarily mean it is a correct deduction, but it exists nonetheless.....and most of the shortcomings are devised and created by the rather clumsy construction of your metaphor.

Chap wrote:However, if anybody said to you 'Your are just speculating about your room-mate drinking the milk', you would at least raise an eyebrow. I think that applies to the attitude you are taking to the present situation.

This might be true and is likely the first response to your own suspicion..."for example":

milk
hours
gone
roommate

one's first inclination is to reasonably deduce that one forgot they drank milk
after being assured that memory had not failed
the next reasonable deduction is that someone else drank the milk without one's knowledge (see memory assurance mentioned previously)
having deduced rather successfully thus far, one deduces that a person with access to the milk drank the milk
upon further inspection and dismissing the possibility of an interloper, there is only one person with such access
the roommate
at this point the deduction has been reasonably reached but
most "reasonable" people do not take to the streets hysterically proclaiming their roommate's guilt
they simply ask the roommate and share their carefully deduced suspicion...which ironically is just a speculation at this point

Reasoning is nothing but the faculty of deducing unknown truths from principles already known.
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_moksha
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _moksha »

It will be good when this board's cadre of Republican talking point posters are given some clear and coherent message to push on this Russian collusion issue. Letting them flounder on their own is unhelpful if only insults result from it.
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_subgenius
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _subgenius »

moksha wrote:It will be good when this board's cadre of Republican talking point posters are given some clear and coherent message to push on this Russian collusion issue. Letting them flounder on their own is unhelpful if only insults result from it.

keep the faith much?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Chap
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _Chap »

subgenius wrote:discussion board vs find it reasonable - these two ideas have proven to not co-exist


I have noticed a few such cases, yes.

But please don't let me take up your time unnecessarily.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_subgenius
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Re: Evidence Of Collusion Soon To Surface?

Post by _subgenius »

Chap wrote:
subgenius wrote:discussion board vs find it reasonable - these two ideas have proven to not co-exist


I have noticed a few such cases, yes.

But please don't let me take up your time unnecessarily.

I never have let you, but thank you for the courtesy.

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2017 ... 430755001/
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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