disorder of assumption

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Res Ipsa
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Res Ipsa »

canpakes wrote:
Amore wrote:Tell me how many children have been created by 2 men... or 2 women... NONE.
How many children have been created by a father and mother - ALL children - every one of 7+ billion people.


Just passing through, but I thought I'd mention that the ability for two people to create children between themselves has never been a requirement for granting a marriage license. I hope that this argument is not being used for that purpose.


So far, it's been asserted as some kind of self-evident proof of something. I've invited him to share his reasoning, but crickets...
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SteelHead
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by SteelHead »

There are various species in which an individual of the species will change gender when there is a shortage of said gender. Some humans are born truly hermaphroditic, others (humans) change sex naturally. There is much more breadth to nature than Amore allows it.

In humans
Several medical conditions can result in a natural sex change in humans, where the appearance at birth is somewhat, mostly, or completely of one sex, but changes over the course of a lifetime to being somewhat, mostly or completely of the other sex. The overwhelming majority of natural sex changes are from a female appearance at birth to a male appearance after puberty, due to either 5-alpha-reductase deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) or 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency (17beta-HSD-3).[5][6] A relative handful of male to female changes have been reported, and the etiologies of these are not well understood.[7][8]

Genetic females (with two X chromosomes) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia lack an enzyme needed by the adrenal gland to make the hormones cortisol and aldosterone. Without these hormones, the body produces more androgens. This causes male sex characteristics to appear early (or inappropriately).[9][10][11]

Genetic males (with one X and one Y chromosome) with androgen insensitivity syndrome are resistant to androgens. As a result, the person has some or all of the physical characteristics of a female, despite having the genetic makeup of a male. The degree of sexual ambiguity varies widely in persons with incomplete AIS. Incomplete AIS can include other disorders such as Reifenstein syndrome which is associated with breast development in men.[12]
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Res Ipsa
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Res Ipsa »

It's a damn shame when nature decides to be unnatural...

ETA: Of course, this whole "natural" issue is a smokescreen. Amore and his fellow travelers don't really think that "natural" = "good." Indeed, many would say that the natural man is an enemy to God." So, natural is actually bad, except when it can be used as a rhetorical club against gay folks. What Amore really means by "natural" is "what God commands." He doesn't hate gay folk because they are unnatural. He hates them because he thinks God wants him to.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

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SteelHead
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by SteelHead »

Amore has also failed to address that same sex relations occur in other species. In some species of primates the same sex sexual encounters greatly outnumber the opposite sex encounters.
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by EAllusion »

Amore's primary complaint with homosexuality in this thread is anal sex, which is not a practice very many female homosexuals engage in, not universal among male homosexuals, and not uncommon among heterosexuals. There's a lot going wrong in understanding the risk/benefits of anal sex too, but conflating it with homosexuality does no one any favors.

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by EAllusion »

Typing on a keyboard is an "unnatural" use of one's fingers in the same sense that homosexual sex is unnatural. It does not follow that sex must be procreative to be either natural or ethically permissible. The latter is widely rejected even among people who dislike homosexuals. Sexual contact serves a variety of functions, from emotional bonding to comfort to fun, and those aren't illicit because they fail to be aimed at procreative ends.

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Gunnar »

EAllusion wrote:Typing on a keyboard is an "unnatural" use of one's fingers in the same sense that homosexual sex is unnatural. It does not follow that sex must be procreative to be either natural or ethically permissible. The latter is widely rejected even among people who dislike homosexuals. Sexual contact serves a variety of functions, from emotional bonding to comfort to fun, and those aren't illicit because they fail to be aimed at procreative ends.

Isn't sex always aimed at the "procreative end" of one or more of the participants? :wink:
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by subgenius »

Brad Hudson wrote:
LOL. Victim of religious brainwashing claims that everyone else is brainwashed. See, you've bought into the anti-gay propaganda that you can be a good Christian and hate gays, too because, really, you love them more than people who want to let them get married and raise children. And your beliefs have been shaped without you even knowing it!

I read where Brad is posting his usual argument of
Image

Brad Hudson wrote:See how this works!! You only believe what you believe because of anti-gay propaganda. And you can't deny it because denying it is part of what you've been taught to do!!!!!!!!!
Isn't this fun?


"You can't deny it" because you have been taught to deny it ??? :confused:

Another fine example of BH argument under full steam ahead....bravo!
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by subgenius »

SteelHead wrote:Amore has also failed to address that same sex relations occur in other species. In some species of primates the same sex sexual encounters greatly outnumber the opposite sex encounters.

congratulations, genetic defects occur in other species as well...does not make them desirable defects or even beneficial defects.

Besides, your facts are fabricated (as usual) science has observed this behavior in a minority population and only among a minority of species.
But hey, i like your logic of "Timmy did it too!"
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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subgenius
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by subgenius »

EAllusion wrote:Typing on a keyboard is an "unnatural" use of one's fingers in the same sense that homosexual sex is unnatural. It does not follow that sex must be procreative to be either natural or ethically permissible. The latter is widely rejected even among people who dislike homosexuals. Sexual contact serves a variety of functions, from emotional bonding to comfort to fun, and those aren't illicit because they fail to be aimed at procreative ends.

There should be a warning attached to your post...about the danger to brain cells, as many were lost reading it.

But please....explain why sexual contact has a positive emotional consequence...but explain it given your previous stance(s) on how unreliable, weak, feeble, and laughable emotions are.
yep
waiting on that resolution

EAllusion cherry picking begins in 5...4...3...2...
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by SteelHead »

Sub,
Claiming a behavior is unnatural, when nature is full of examples of said behavior, does nothing to strengthen a position.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... l_behavior

.
.
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Bagemihl's research shows that homosexual behavior, not necessarily sex, has been observed in about 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[5][6]
.
.
.


Spin it how you want, but same sex activity is common in nature.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Amore »

Steelhead,
Only when an argument is soooooo desperate, does one have no choice left but to look to animals for justification. Didn't you know that human ability to reason far outweighs cognitive ability in animals?

Even if homosexuality was "common" in wild animals, so are many types of vicious violence, even eating their young. Why would you attempt such a comparison?

Comparing those who've developed homosexual preferences to wild animals is insulting, and is illogical, but homosexual herd mentality deals with "critical theory" and is based on cognitive distortion emotional reasoning. Logic and facts are foreign to homosexual herd mentality.

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by SteelHead »

Amore,
I am not the one that claimed that same sex relations are un natural. You are. I merely point out that your assertion is demonstrably false.

As to behavior of humans, you need look no further than Syria/Iraq to see that when it comes to violence against ones own kind, including children, humans are quite proficient.

It is no more demeaning towards homosexuals to note that animals engage in same sex activities than it demeaning to heterosexuals to note that animals also engage in hetero activities.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Gunnar »

Amore wrote:Steelhead,
Only when an argument is soooooo desperate, does one have no choice left but to look to animals for justification. Didn't you know that human ability to reason far outweighs cognitive ability in animals?

Even if homosexuality was "common" in wild animals, so are many types of vicious violence, even eating their young. Why would you attempt such a comparison?

Comparing those who've developed homosexual preferences to wild animals is insulting, and is illogical, but homosexual herd mentality deals with "critical theory" and is based on cognitive distortion emotional reasoning. Logic and facts are foreign to homosexual herd mentality.

The fact remains that claiming that homosexuality is somehow unnatural, given its prevalence in nature, is absurd. Furthermore, using either the mere prevalence or non-prevalence of a particular behavior in non-human species to either condone or condemn the same behavior in humans is absurd. That human ability to reason far outweighs cognitive ability in animals does not, by itself, have the slightest bearing on the morality or immorality of homosexuality, nor does the question of whether or not either approval or non-approval of homosexuality is a product of herd mentality.

To me, the only really relevant consideration is "does homosexuality by some minority of the human population materially harm others who are not themselves homosexuals?" If not, it is none of my business whether someone else is or is not a homosexual. Homosexuality does not preclude people from becoming highly accomplished, highly valued contributors to society, and great benefactors to their fellow humans, unless they are denied the opportunity to fully develop their skills and talents due to discrimination and/or legal sanctions against them due to their homosexuality.
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Gunnar »

SteelHead wrote:Amore,
I am not the one that claimed that same sex relations are un natural. You are. I merely point out that your assertion is demonstrably false.

As to behavior of humans, you need look no further than Syria/Iraq to see that when it comes to violence against ones own kind, including children, humans are quite proficient.

It is no more demeaning towards homosexuals to note that animals engage in same sex activities than it demeaning to heterosexuals to note that animals also engage in hetero activities.
Amen!
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Res Ipsa »

Amore wrote:Steelhead,
Only when an argument is soooooo desperate, does one have no choice left but to look to animals for justification. Didn't you know that human ability to reason far outweighs cognitive ability in animals?

Even if homosexuality was "common" in wild animals, so are many types of vicious violence, even eating their young. Why would you attempt such a comparison?

Comparing those who've developed homosexual preferences to wild animals is insulting, and is illogical, but homosexual herd mentality deals with "critical theory" and is based on cognitive distortion emotional reasoning. Logic and facts are foreign to homosexual herd mentality.


Member of the homophobe herd loses track of own argument. Film at 11:00.

Amore: homosexuality is perverse because it is unnatural.
Several people who actually use their brains: Actually homosexuality is found throughout nature.
Amore: homosexuality is perverse because it is natural.

Shorter Amore: homosexuality is perverse because I think anal sex is icky.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by subgenius »

SteelHead wrote:Spin it how you want, but same sex activity is common in nature.

rare occurrences among 1500 species does not merit the exaggeration of "common"...and 1500 out of several million species even furthers negates the need for any spin....your wishful thinking is merely that...wishful.

But i appreciate your "all is natural" position

ergo

intolerance of and disgust with homosexual behavior is perfectly natural.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by subgenius »

Brad Hudson wrote:
Shorter Amore: homosexuality is perverse because I think anal sex is icky.

its a much narrower definition than you are stating here...you omitted the "...with Brad Hudson" part.....
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Amore »

SteelHead wrote:Amore,
I am not the one that claimed that same sex relations are un natural. You are. I merely point out that your assertion is demonstrably false.

How are sexual substitutes like anal sex and dildos "natural" for human beings?
Where's the proof?
Are you walking proof of homosexuality - NOPE... If it weren't for heterosexuality, none of us would be here.
It's not like we all have to be rocket scientists to produce offspring - it just naturally happens as a result of heterosexual desires.
Natural: "existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind"
Heterosexuality is natural - it doesn't require using sexual substitutes and it plays a significant part in nature.
Homosexuality in human beings is a useless, but statistically harmful human-contrived distortion, unless you want to try to tell me animals have contrived human homosexuality.

As to behavior of humans, you need look no further than Syria/Iraq to see that when it comes to violence against ones own kind, including children, humans are quite proficient.
So, what's your point, in relation to this argument?
That just because human beings act like wild animals, it's ok and good and nobody should call attention to it?

It is no more demeaning towards homosexuals to note that animals engage in same sex activities than it demeaning to heterosexuals to note that animals also engage in hetero activities.

Heterosexuals are not attempting to justify their behavior by the behavior of wild animals.

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by Amore »

Gunnar wrote:The fact remains that claiming that homosexuality is somehow unnatural, given its prevalence in nature, is absurd.

Prove the natural purpose of homosexuality in human nature.
There is none. In fact, it goes against nature because the anus is intended as an exist only.
And when some attempt to use it as a substitute for a vagina, it can result in anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture and bacterial infection - again, proof that homosexuality goes AGAINST nature.
It's so obvious, if you weren't brainwashed by homosexuality herd mentality.
Brainwash: make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure"

Furthermore, using either the mere prevalence or non-prevalence of a particular behavior in non-human species to either condone or condemn the same behavior in humans is absurd.

First you claim it's absurd that homosexuality in humans is justified by comparing human behavior to behavior of wild animals.
Now, you're stating that wild animals should not be compared to humans.
Which is it that you're attempting to argue?

That human ability to reason far outweighs cognitive ability in animals does not, by itself, have the slightest bearing on the morality or immorality of homosexuality, nor does the question of whether or not either approval or non-approval of homosexuality is a product of herd mentality.

Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Would you consider reports from the US CDC of high rates of STDs, HIV/AIDS & mental illness among those who practice homosexuality, to be good?
Would you consider risks of anal sex - anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture and bacterial infection -to be good?
Please answer these 2 questions, at least.

To me, the only really relevant consideration is "does homosexuality by some minority of the human population materially harm others who are not themselves homosexuals?" If not, it is none of my business whether someone else is or is not a homosexual.

Children and teens tend to have a difficult time seeing consequences - they only see what affects them in the immediate now. You're an adult, right? Try to see how twisted this society is getting - already transgendering children in the name of "homosexual rights." Just 10 years ago, pretending your boy is a girl or visa versa was considered child abuse. What about adult children coming out against same-sex marriage, explaining how they missed having the opposite sex parent. Do you deny the value of mothers, or fathers? Can you see how the homosexual movement has screwed with society ALREADY?

Most obviously, the democratic voting process has been dissed, by judges, overriding popular votes against same sex marriage. Even if you agree with the judges, you must see negative implications for this lack of due process.

Children have the right to not be taught homosexuality in school. Yet, in places where homosexual fetish marriage has been supported, these rights have been infringed upon...
*Freshmen were told not to tell their parents about a pro-gay seminar & were required to sign a confidentiality agreement (Derrfield, Illinois Mar. 2007).
*In March, 2007, a Massachusetts high school banned parents from attending a seminar for students on how they can know they are homosexual.
*In October, 2008, First graders (6 year-old students) were taken on a field trip to watch their lesbian teacher's wedding.
*In Oct 2008, a Hayward CA public elementary school celebrated "Coming Out Day."

Normalizing & even encouraging children to explore homosexuality obviously causes more to experiment with homosexuality.
"The Legal Liability Associated with Homosexuality Education in Schools... This report is part of an integrated strategy to inform and educate parents, students and school officials across the nation of its contents and of their respective rights and duties. It has documented the concern that the health of students in many schools across the country may have been compromised and their First Amendment rights may have been denied."
http://www.afamichigan.org/images/Legal ... 200504.pdf

Some in the homosexual fetish activist group have bluntly admitted that their eventual goal is to normalize pedophilia and inappropriate adult-child sexual relations.

Many have been harassed by the homosexual fetish herd, without public notice, but some have been public, like Chick Filay and a Miss America contestant, both who voiced their support for marriage between a man and a woman.
Other examples include...
*In April 2008, an Albuquerque photographer was fined over $6,000 for refusing to be hired to photograph a lesbian couple's commitment ceremony.
*In May, 2008, a black administrator was fired from the U of Toledo, Ohio, for writing an editorial objecting to the comparison of black discrimination to same-sex marriage.
*An intolerant opponent of Proposition 8 violently attacked & injured a Proposition supporter in Oct. 2008.
*On November 19, 2008, eHarmony, a Christian-based matching service was forced by New Jersey's Division on Civil Rights to provide website matching services for homosexuals.

Homosexuality does not preclude people from becoming highly accomplished, highly valued contributors to society, and great benefactors to their fellow humans, unless they are denied the opportunity to fully develop their skills and talents due to discrimination and/or legal sanctions against them due to their homosexuality.

Yes it does, if they're sick with STDs, AIDs/HIV, mental illness or anal problems - or death.
Ex-homosexual and former gay rights leader, Michael Glatz said, "Homosexuality is death and I choose life."

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Re: disorder of assumption

Post by SteelHead »

Sub, subtract out all the plants, things the reproduce asexually, etc and see how many species are left. Better yet, see how many of the major primates you can find for which homosexuality has not been recorded.

Amore, you are incoherent and failing to grasp English.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin

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