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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:18 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
I tend to think its a rare trait to be able to sincerely understand a position that contradicts one's own in a way that person could accurately present this view in a way those who hold it would accept it as their own. I don't have that understanding most of the time. But I think the best discussions come from people who a) open up their own views in order to express them so others can more readily understand them, and b) engage the opposing argument as its being presented rather than a form of it one assumes is the intention of the person with whom one disagrees.

This thread lacked both of those characteristics. Perhaps it's too bad. Perhaps its the craziness of the current political climate saturating everything else to the point its all poisoned. I don't know. But being open with ones own views and sincerely engaging others and what they share is kinda necessary to be considered legitimately nice behavior.


I agree with you that it is a rare trait. It is one I am willing to attempt with a person who is engaging in an honest conversation in good will. There are many times, however, when I have other motives for starting a thread or participating in one. Some are designed to have fun. Some are posted to vent. Some are fishing for support, agreement, or sympathy.

Ceeboo is in a real minority here, and, frankly, most of his pro-Trump allies on this board (I know he did not vote for Trump) are people I would be ashamed to be associated with. Sorry, but it's true. But Ceeboo is someone I find likable for the most part, and, to my knowledge, a decent fellow. Maybe he hangs out here partly because he is amused by the views and behavior of people whose experience is so different from his own. But there are times when it must be tempting to express alienation and disdain, and I would not be surprised if this atmosphere brought that out in him.


Last edited by Kishkumen on Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
When it comes to politics, I think it's much of the same. If the behavior is a mix of, "Let's agree to disagree" and "Everyone who thinks this way is cray cray!" then it seems like that person, in this case ceebs, isn't actually interested in understanding why other people hold sincere beliefs that contradict their own. Otherwise ceebs might want to be able to intelligently engage that other person from where they are at rather than as a one of the stereotypes created to explain this particular insanity among those who share one's position.

I wonder if you or anyone else has a copy of the opening post handy from writing their own replies? I read it just once.

He basically copy-pasted this article:

http://www.dennisprager.com/fear-of-the ... ica-today/

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Maybe he hangs out here partly because he is amused by the views and behavior of people whose experience is so different from his own. But there are times when it must be tempting to express alienation and disdain, and I would not be surprised if this atmosphere brought that out in him.

Could be. But since he wasn't interested in being open about his own views or engaging others I guess we'll never know. ;)

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Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Fear of the Left. Fear of the Right.
Hate the Left. Hate the Right.
Fear. Hate.
Left. Right.
Fight! Fight! Fight!

(Cui bono?)

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:21 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
He basically copy-pasted this article:
http://www.dennisprager.com/fear-of-the ... ica-today/


I can see how that seems like a reasonable article if you are inclined to buy into the conservative persecution complex, but its rhetoric (left-wing mob) is a pretty clear giveaway that it does not succeed at being an honest critique.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Fear of the Left. Fear of the Right.
Hate the Left. Hate the Right.
Fear. Hate.
Left. Right.
Fight! Fight! Fight!

(Cui bono?)

Deep State.

OMG!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
(Cui bono?)

Now there's the real question. Who really benefits from keeping us at one another's throats?

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:25 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
He basically copy-pasted this article:

http://www.dennisprager.com/fear-of-the ... ica-today/

Prager is a slick but shallow culture warrior, a professional ideologue for decades. He's a more polite confederate of slime like D'Souza and Corsi.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Here's what I don't quite understand. If you express a view and get massive blow back from a variety of people, how can that not make you re-evaluate the expressed view? Is the view that precious if it's so unworkable?

It's happened to me many times. How else does one learn?

The only reason I come to this place is because not everyone agrees on everything. It's instructive.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I agree with you that it is a rare trait. It is one I am willing to attempt with a person who is engaging in an honest conversation in good will. There are many times, however, when I have other motives for starting a thread or participating in one. Some are designed to have fun. Some are posted to vent. Some are fishing for support, agreement, or sympathy.

And sometimes folks just want to shoot the bull without too much picking apart. I'm not saying that there was too much picking apart on this thread. I can't recall half of what was deleted.

I do think there might have been some level of venting factor involved. Perhaps his expectations weren't met or his expectations weren't realistic?

Quote:
Ceeboo is in a real minority here, and, frankly, most of his pro-Trump allies on this board (I know he did not vote for Trump) are people I would be ashamed to be associated with. Sorry, but it's true. But Ceeboo is someone I find likable for the most part, and, to my knowledge, a decent fellow. Maybe he hangs out here partly because he is amused by the views and behavior of people whose experience is so different from his own. But there are times when it must be tempting to express alienation and disdain, and I would not be surprised if this atmosphere brought that out in him.

Well of coure it's tempting to express a sense of alienation and disdain, particularly when you're in the minorty. I recall that after my first few days online, I had written something (I can't recall just what) where the posters took it mean I was giving up (I was surrounded by atheists and agnostics) and one or more posters emailed me. My attitude at the time was Me? I'm not going anywhere. ;-) But that's me compared to a Ceeboo who doesn't seem to like the push and pull of the argument, and the personal growth that can come from it. I'm not saying he doesn't want to learn anything. I'm not sure if he sees that it can come from the argument itself? I dunno.

As for the speculation, the "maybe" of why he participates and why he participates the way that he does, perhaps that question should have been asked long before this.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:34 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
He basically copy-pasted this article:

http://www.dennisprager.com/fear-of-the ... ica-today/

Thank you, honor. I'll get to reading that right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
I do think there might have been some level of venting factor involved. Perhaps his expectations weren't met or his expectations weren't realistic?

I can't speak to the middle of the thread which really took a turn, but initially and at the end I don't think ceebs had any intention to engage people and their sincere views about what Prager was missing according to those Prager was castigating. He appears to have just wanted to see who howled. When he was met with questions or attempts at digging into the content a bit he either just ignored the post or said something trite. But he had all kinds of time to respond to low content bitchy posts with more low content bitchy posts.

You're giving him more credit than the evidence suggests he deserves here, Jersey Girl. He wasn't interested in a discussion or he would have had one because it was here to be had.

ETA: Let me be clear. I am saying what I think because it doesn't matter to me if ceebs comes back if he just does more of the same. I'd be interested in real conversations with him but I'm pretty used to being disappointed. He should know that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:40 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
I do think there might have been some level of venting factor involved. Perhaps his expectations weren't met or his expectations weren't realistic?

I can't speak to the middle of the thread which really took a turn, but initially and at the end I don't think ceebs had any intention to engage people and their sincere views about what Prager was getting wrong. He appears to have just wanted to see who howled. When he was met with questions or attempts at digging into the content a bit he either just ignored the post or said something trite. But he had all kinds of time to respond to low content bitchy posts with more low content bitchy posts.


Maybe, if he was responding to ____ with ____, he needed to let off steam? I saw one remark about knowledge signaling?

Quote:
You're giving him more credit than the evidence suggests he deserves here, Jersey Girl. He wasn't interested in a discussion or he would have had one because it was here to be had.


I'm just trying to figure it out, honor. I hope he sees that people are talking about what happened from their differing perspectives. A healthy post mortem never hurt anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
I can't speak to the middle of the thread which really took a turn, but initially and at the end I don't think ceebs had any intention to engage people and their sincere views about what Prager was getting wrong. He appears to have just wanted to see who howled. When he was met with questions or attempts at digging into the content a bit he either just ignored the post or said something trite. But he had all kinds of time to respond to low content bitchy posts with more low content bitchy posts.


Maybe, if he was responding to ____ with ____, he needed to let off steam? I saw one remark about knowledge signaling?

Could be. If that need took the form of coming to a place where he felt most posters were to his left and throwing in a grenade because he needed to piss of people he disagreed with politically for sport it seems there isn't much to defend, either.

Jersey Girl wrote:
Quote:
You're giving him more credit than the evidence suggests he deserves here, Jersey Girl. He wasn't interested in a discussion or he would have had one because it was here to be had.


I'm just trying to figure it out, honor. I hope he sees that people are talking about what happened from their differing perspectives. A healthy post mortem never hurt anyone.

I agree. And I hope if he comes back it's with intent to be open with his views and engage others sincere posts with something akin to, "Here's what I hear you saying and this is how it either doesn't reflect my understanding or may run into this fact here that I consider important..." Otherwise, meh.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Hey Ceebs,

Before I run off to read the article from the OP and get some stuff done around here, and at the outside chance that you're reading here... Maybe you were disgusted with the folks on the thread or it also occurs to me that you could have been disgusted with yourself. Maybe you felt embarrassed by some of your posts so you left and took your asininity with you. If that is the case, never do that.

Leave your asininity where you can see it again. When I returned here I could have erased the posts that I made the just before I was banned. Nope. They're still sitting there for all the world to see. Even me. It serves of a reminder of what a mess I was dealing with IRL and how much it affected me. It's also a reminder of how it's not a mess any more.

Maybe you think the guys here are asshats. Of course they're asshats. You're an asshat. I'm an asshat. We all take a turn at it. If people like us weren't asshats, we wouldn't think we needed God. ;-)

I just do know that this thread went to hell and there's usually more than one reason that a thread does that. It would help future interactions if you'd come talk it out here. Decades old friendships can be had with greater understanding. So can decades of learning from each other.

In any case, if something is going on that's a mess. We're here. I'm here. Put it in a PM or throw it up in Prison where you can say anything you want. It's okay if it sounds insane. Sometimes life is insane and takes us with it.

K, I'm reading the article that you posted. I hope you see fit to come in and detangle this ball of yarn.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:23 pm 
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honor that article uses the term "mob" twice and also refers to what could be described as a mob. Is that why Ceeboo used the term in one of his last posts?

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
honor that article uses the term "mob" twice and also refers to what could be described as a mob. Is that why Ceeboo used the term in one of his last posts?

No idea, though being able to read ceebs' mind would have helped the discussion quite a bit.

If I were to take a stab at doing so, my personal guess at what ceebs intended would go something like this:

Dennis Prager wrote an article that gets at how I (ceebs) also feel when talking to liberals. That being, they shame my views of the world and refuse to acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons for why I don't agree with them. But Prager also remarks this isn't really liberal thinking. Rather, it's "leftism" that has commandeered the liberal tradition and is attacking free speech, demanding things that are driven by a taker mentality rather than an earner mentality, and trying to force socialism onto America by shouting everyone down so they can't think straight.

I happen to know where a number of liberals hang out on the interwebs, and maybe if they knew leftism was this pernicious thing doing damage to liberal political views they'd recognize that they and I share a common enemy in leftism. I'll share that article with them and see what happens.

Hmmm, everyone responding to the article is reacting like they are being targeted by Prager. Of course, anyone who is a leftist would think that. Let's ask a question to see if most people here are leftists more than liberals.

Hmm, people seem to think this is really about Trump. I didn't like Trump, didn't vote for the guy, and don't own him. But this is supposed to be about leftism and how they are turning liberals into a real threat to the American way.

Let's see, I know. Here's a different question about earner v. taker as it relates to social justice issues. That's a good way to know who the leftists are and who is just a liberal while sorting out who is just into calling people racists and Nazis.

Hmmm, only one or two people seem to agree with my take on this. Lets, WAIT, WHACK WHACK LEFTIST BASTARD! (page after page of whack-a-leftist based on racial ____)

(After whacking leftist bastards) Let's see. There were a couple of comments about how crazy this thread is, yet all one has to do is read this board to know the M D B is overrun with an infestation of leftist propaganda.

all right, I'm done. This board is clearly filled with hateful leftists who just want to shout conservatives down rather than dialog about the differences in our beliefs. Let me go BBQ and tell the neighbor friends about the latest craziness at the M D B.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:20 pm 
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I just finished reading what's left of this entire thread. That's right, all 27 pages of it. I also read the article from the OP. I either deserve a gold medal or a 5150, take your pick.

Ceeboo you should come back here and try this again. That's all I'm saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:20 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
I don't feel Schmo was really out of line even if it wasn't the words I'd use. I don't care for passive aggressive behavior and when it gets countered with aggressive aggressive behavior, I generally view it as of a kind.


Yup. I said something like that myself in an earlier post, and I think honorentheos sums up the situation quite well. I would not have posted as Schmo did, simply because I am not him. But I quite understand why he felt moved to do so.

honorentheos wrote:
Ceebs posted a clearly polemic piece for an O P. He had every opportunity to show he was legitimately interested in engaging people over its content. It wasn't just that he was being overwhelmed that he didn't respond. He clearly wasn't interested in a good faith conversation, and seemed mostly interested in people validating whatever beliefs he already had. It gets old being asked a question, offering up a response with intent to dig into them a bit to only get a, "Thanks for playing!" That's not being nice. That's being a dick in a different kind of way. I'm sorry if it is offensive to say this, but frankly the quality of content in his posts went up after he erased them. That's how little actual content was there before.


I strongly agree with the bolded part. Ceeboo seemed to want a licence to say or post whatever he wanted, however offensive - and the OP was very offensive - ignore any attempts to debate it by giving silly dismissive responses, and then go all 'Who, nice little me?' when someone finally calls him out in the only way he can't ignore, which is to go volcanic.

I have to say that a part of me suspects that Ceeboo left the discussion having got what he wanted, like the member of the couple who continually needles and provokes their partner until they are enraged, and then says 'See It's your anger issues that are the problem in our relationship. Poor little me!'

By the way, I think that in time he will be back. Frankly, though, I think he might have a better experience if he tried out a sock puppet with a more engaged approach to dialog with people he does not agree with. He might find that experience both enjoyable and interesting. Then if, despite everything, he can't do without being Ceeboo (and I do have a certain affection for the cow avatar), it will still be open to him to go back to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:53 pm 
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I think perhaps that Ceeboo did not have memes or countering links ready to hand and did not feel confident in his own powers of expression. This board is a very challenging place, which is great if you're ready for it but not if you aren't. It's like running whitewater. You're going to get bounced around, have to change direction, learn or drown...but if that's still okay, you will often enjoy the ride. If not.... :eek:

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 Post subject: Re: Fear of the Left . . .
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
I think perhaps that Ceeboo did not have memes or countering links ready to hand and did not feel confident in his own powers of expression. This board is a very challenging place, which is great if you're ready for it but not if you aren't. It's like running whitewater. You're going to get bounced around, have to change direction, learn or drown...but if that's still okay, you will often enjoy the ride. If not.... :eek:


Well, you know ...

Image

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