Gaz raised some questions in his thread about "another Jesus". I would like to focus on them.
Gaz Take the trinity for example. To a Born Again Christian God is like water and can be represented as Liquid, Ice, Or Vapor. That is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in one being. Make sence to you? Of coarce its understandable since we cannot comprehend God. God is a mystery.
Unless you take Christ at his word. John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Richard You admitted later that Jesus is God. What’s your point?
If we are to know the Father through the Son, then what do we know of the Son? What are his own words? Mat. 12:50
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Its by obedience to the principles that Christ taught, being baptised, takeing on his name, being obedient to the commandments, that we gain the culture of that kingdom. We become a part of that family. When we take on the name of Christ, we obtain the blesings associated with that name.
God made man in his own image (Gen. 1:26-27) and gave him commandments that he might choose of his own free will to seek after the culture of heaven. In this way we see who is worthy to share in eternal life with our Heavenly Father and mother, alongside our brother Jesus Christ and his wife.
Richard Please explain this in light of "There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10 How do we become worthy?
What Father did not have a wife also? What child ever came from a single parent? If the Father is our Father, the same Father spoken of by Jesus Christ, then by obedience to the declaration made by the savior, we can receive the same reward.
Richard So do you agree with the Arius, “The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing.[3]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius Note that wikipedia is not always accurate, but it is here in my opinion.
Please explain this in light of Col 1:16
“For by Him (Jesus) all things were created”.
If the Father had a wife, and they had Jesus, then all things were not created by Jesus since Jesus himself is a created being.
This is all blasphemy and corrupt teachings to a Born Again Christian, but ask them to teach from the scriptures against it, they cannot.
Questions for Gaz
I'm not sure why you wanted to start a whole new thread for this, but ok.
First question : " You admitted later that Jesus is God. What’s your point? "
Jesus is God, by obedience to his Fathers teachings he inherited all that his Father had. He became one with the Father, in that he became one with the principles of the gospel. It is the principles of the gospel that make God God, whether speaking of the Father or the son. That is what makes the teachings of Jesus Christ so important for us to understand and infuse into our character, so that we can achieve our full potential.
Second question: "Please explain this in light of "There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10 How do we become worthy? "
There are none worthy because any sin makes us unable to enter the house of God. (1 Nephi 10:21) By being obedient to the commandments of Christ, and in keeping our covenants with him, he makes us clean through the Atonement. (D&C 88:74) We are saved by grace through covenants.
Third question: "So do you agree with the Arius, “The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing". Please explain this in light of Col 1:16 “For by Him (Jesus) all things were created”.
I do not fully agree with Arius, since his basis is incorrect. He is correct in that the Father became the Father. But Arius goes from here to say that Christ came from nothing. In this he is incorrect.
Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 states "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
Christ came from this same place. An Apocryphal work states that the surrounding intelligences "breathed the fragrance" of God and desired to be like him. Christ was the first to draw close to the Fatehr, and through his own strength of will became "like unto the Father". Christs nature was such that he was endowed with power and authority in the pre-existence. Others were like him, but none were perfect in their obedience to the principles like Christ was. Adam was close, as were others like Abraham and Noah. Those who proved themselves faithful were set apart and ordained to be leaders.
Christ was the creator, under the direction of the Father, of all things. This fell under the divine investiture of authority to this spirit that had proved himself faithful.
Fourth question: "If the Father had a wife, and they had Jesus, then all things were not created by Jesus since Jesus himself is a created being. "
Again, Christ was organized, not created. Everything has an order and a time appointed. Christ acts now under the direction of the Father, and a time will come when his children wil act under his direction. The Father did not create all things in the universe, neither did Christ, but they do create in their spheres of influence, as will others in the future in the ever expanding universe.
First question : " You admitted later that Jesus is God. What’s your point? "
Jesus is God, by obedience to his Fathers teachings he inherited all that his Father had. He became one with the Father, in that he became one with the principles of the gospel. It is the principles of the gospel that make God God, whether speaking of the Father or the son. That is what makes the teachings of Jesus Christ so important for us to understand and infuse into our character, so that we can achieve our full potential.
Second question: "Please explain this in light of "There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10 How do we become worthy? "
There are none worthy because any sin makes us unable to enter the house of God. (1 Nephi 10:21) By being obedient to the commandments of Christ, and in keeping our covenants with him, he makes us clean through the Atonement. (D&C 88:74) We are saved by grace through covenants.
Third question: "So do you agree with the Arius, “The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing". Please explain this in light of Col 1:16 “For by Him (Jesus) all things were created”.
I do not fully agree with Arius, since his basis is incorrect. He is correct in that the Father became the Father. But Arius goes from here to say that Christ came from nothing. In this he is incorrect.
Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 states "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
Christ came from this same place. An Apocryphal work states that the surrounding intelligences "breathed the fragrance" of God and desired to be like him. Christ was the first to draw close to the Fatehr, and through his own strength of will became "like unto the Father". Christs nature was such that he was endowed with power and authority in the pre-existence. Others were like him, but none were perfect in their obedience to the principles like Christ was. Adam was close, as were others like Abraham and Noah. Those who proved themselves faithful were set apart and ordained to be leaders.
Christ was the creator, under the direction of the Father, of all things. This fell under the divine investiture of authority to this spirit that had proved himself faithful.
Fourth question: "If the Father had a wife, and they had Jesus, then all things were not created by Jesus since Jesus himself is a created being. "
Again, Christ was organized, not created. Everything has an order and a time appointed. Christ acts now under the direction of the Father, and a time will come when his children wil act under his direction. The Father did not create all things in the universe, neither did Christ, but they do create in their spheres of influence, as will others in the future in the ever expanding universe.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_richardMdBorn
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:05 am
Hi Gaz,
My new comments are in bold.
Gaz I'm not sure why you wanted to start a whole new thread for this, but ok.
Richard Well, earlier, you wrote:
Gaz This is all blasphemy and corrupt teachings to a Born Again Christian, but ask them to teach from the scriptures against it, they cannot.
Richard This reminds me of I Ki 20:11 Then the king of Israel replied, "Tell him, `Let not him who girds on his armor boast like him who takes it off.'
Perhaps you should prove your points in argument before boasting about how superior they are to anything an evangelical can muster.
Richard First question : " You admitted later that Jesus is God. What’s your point? "
Gaz Jesus is God, by obedience to his Fathers teachings he inherited all that his Father had. He became one with the Father, in that he became one with the principles of the gospel. It is the principles of the gospel that make God God, whether speaking of the Father or the son. That is what makes the teachings of Jesus Christ so important for us to understand and infuse into our character, so that we can achieve our full potential.
Richard So there is no inherent difference between Jesus and people in general?
Richard Second question: "Please explain this in light of "There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10 How do we become worthy? "
Gaz There are none worthy because any sin makes us unable to enter the house of God. (1 Nephi 10:21) By being obedient to the commandments of Christ, and in keeping our covenants with him, he makes us clean through the Atonement. (D&C 88:74) We are saved by grace through covenants.
Richard But you earlier stated:
Gaz God made man in his own image (Gen. 1:26-27) and gave him commandments that he might choose of his own free will to seek after the culture of heaven. In this way we see who is worthy to share in eternal life with our Heavenly Father and mother, alongside our brother Jesus Christ and his wife.
Richard You first stated that God gave us commandments to follow. Now you write that we are saved through grace through covenants. Does God justify the ungodly? (Rom 4:5). Who went home justified, the Pharisee or the Publican? Luke 18
Richard Third question: "So do you agree with the Arius, “The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing". Please explain this in light of Col 1:16 “For by Him (Jesus) all things were created”.
Gaz I do not fully agree with Arius, since his basis is incorrect. He is correct in that the Father became the Father. But Arius goes from here to say that Christ came from nothing. In this he is incorrect.
Richard Was the Father always God?
Gaz Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 states "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
Christ came from this same place. An Apocryphal work states that the surrounding intelligences "breathed the fragrance" of God and desired to be like him. Christ was the first to draw close to the Fatehr, and through his own strength of will became "like unto the Father". Christs nature was such that he was endowed with power and authority in the pre-existence. Others were like him, but none were perfect in their obedience to the principles like Christ was. Adam was close, as were others like Abraham and Noah. Those who proved themselves faithful were set apart and ordained to be leaders.
Christ was the creator, under the direction of the Father, of all things. This fell under the divine investiture of authority to this spirit that had proved himself faithful.
Fourth question: "If the Father had a wife, and they had Jesus, then all things were not created by Jesus since Jesus himself is a created being. "
Again, Christ was organized, not created. Everything has an order and a time appointed. Christ acts now under the direction of the Father, and a time will come when his children wil act under his direction. The Father did not create all things in the universe, neither did Christ, but they do create in their spheres of influence, as will others in the future in the ever expanding universe.
Richard What was Christ organized out of?
My new comments are in bold.
Gaz I'm not sure why you wanted to start a whole new thread for this, but ok.
Richard Well, earlier, you wrote:
Gaz This is all blasphemy and corrupt teachings to a Born Again Christian, but ask them to teach from the scriptures against it, they cannot.
Richard This reminds me of I Ki 20:11 Then the king of Israel replied, "Tell him, `Let not him who girds on his armor boast like him who takes it off.'
Perhaps you should prove your points in argument before boasting about how superior they are to anything an evangelical can muster.
Richard First question : " You admitted later that Jesus is God. What’s your point? "
Gaz Jesus is God, by obedience to his Fathers teachings he inherited all that his Father had. He became one with the Father, in that he became one with the principles of the gospel. It is the principles of the gospel that make God God, whether speaking of the Father or the son. That is what makes the teachings of Jesus Christ so important for us to understand and infuse into our character, so that we can achieve our full potential.
Richard So there is no inherent difference between Jesus and people in general?
Richard Second question: "Please explain this in light of "There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10 How do we become worthy? "
Gaz There are none worthy because any sin makes us unable to enter the house of God. (1 Nephi 10:21) By being obedient to the commandments of Christ, and in keeping our covenants with him, he makes us clean through the Atonement. (D&C 88:74) We are saved by grace through covenants.
Richard But you earlier stated:
Gaz God made man in his own image (Gen. 1:26-27) and gave him commandments that he might choose of his own free will to seek after the culture of heaven. In this way we see who is worthy to share in eternal life with our Heavenly Father and mother, alongside our brother Jesus Christ and his wife.
Richard You first stated that God gave us commandments to follow. Now you write that we are saved through grace through covenants. Does God justify the ungodly? (Rom 4:5). Who went home justified, the Pharisee or the Publican? Luke 18
Richard Third question: "So do you agree with the Arius, “The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing". Please explain this in light of Col 1:16 “For by Him (Jesus) all things were created”.
Gaz I do not fully agree with Arius, since his basis is incorrect. He is correct in that the Father became the Father. But Arius goes from here to say that Christ came from nothing. In this he is incorrect.
Richard Was the Father always God?
Gaz Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 states "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
Christ came from this same place. An Apocryphal work states that the surrounding intelligences "breathed the fragrance" of God and desired to be like him. Christ was the first to draw close to the Fatehr, and through his own strength of will became "like unto the Father". Christs nature was such that he was endowed with power and authority in the pre-existence. Others were like him, but none were perfect in their obedience to the principles like Christ was. Adam was close, as were others like Abraham and Noah. Those who proved themselves faithful were set apart and ordained to be leaders.
Christ was the creator, under the direction of the Father, of all things. This fell under the divine investiture of authority to this spirit that had proved himself faithful.
Fourth question: "If the Father had a wife, and they had Jesus, then all things were not created by Jesus since Jesus himself is a created being. "
Again, Christ was organized, not created. Everything has an order and a time appointed. Christ acts now under the direction of the Father, and a time will come when his children wil act under his direction. The Father did not create all things in the universe, neither did Christ, but they do create in their spheres of influence, as will others in the future in the ever expanding universe.
Richard What was Christ organized out of?
Question: "So there is no inherent difference between Jesus and people in general? "
On a basic level, no. What separates Christ and his glory from us in a finer sence is his strength of will and character. Christ is our example, set before us as a light unto our feet. (Ps. 119:105, John 13:15, 14:6)
Question: "You first stated that God gave us commandments to follow. Now you write that we are saved through grace through covenants. Does God justify the ungodly? (Rom 4:5). Who went home justified, the Pharisee or the Publican? Luke 18 "
Richard, what is a covenant? It is a contract, an agreement to adhere to a mode of conduct as perscribed by God. The reason God demands these covenants with us (John 3:3-5) is that these covenants are in fact schools to teach us heavenly conduct, thereby acclimating us to the culture of heaven.
Question: "Was the Father always God?"
The fact of the matter is, we don't know. Christ stated that he was imatateing the actions of his Father (John 5:19) Whether The Father was the first intelligence in all of time to become aware and become perfect, we don't know.
On a basic level, no. What separates Christ and his glory from us in a finer sence is his strength of will and character. Christ is our example, set before us as a light unto our feet. (Ps. 119:105, John 13:15, 14:6)
Question: "You first stated that God gave us commandments to follow. Now you write that we are saved through grace through covenants. Does God justify the ungodly? (Rom 4:5). Who went home justified, the Pharisee or the Publican? Luke 18 "
Richard, what is a covenant? It is a contract, an agreement to adhere to a mode of conduct as perscribed by God. The reason God demands these covenants with us (John 3:3-5) is that these covenants are in fact schools to teach us heavenly conduct, thereby acclimating us to the culture of heaven.
Question: "Was the Father always God?"
The fact of the matter is, we don't know. Christ stated that he was imatateing the actions of his Father (John 5:19) Whether The Father was the first intelligence in all of time to become aware and become perfect, we don't know.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_richardMdBorn
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:05 am
Hi Gaz. I’m enjoying the discussion.
Richard Question: "So there is no inherent difference between Jesus and people in general? "
Gaz On a basic level, no. What separates Christ and his glory from us in a finer sence is his strength of will and character. Christ is our example, set before us as a light unto our feet. (Ps. 119:105, John 13:15, 14:6)
Richard I obviously disagree. Christ was always God. We are not God and never will be.
Richard Question: "You first stated that God gave us commandments to follow. Now you write that we are saved through grace through covenants. Does God justify the ungodly? (Rom 4:5). Who went home justified, the Pharisee or the Publican? Luke 18 "
Gaz Richard, what is a covenant? It is a contract, an agreement to adhere to a mode of conduct as perscribed by God. The reason God demands these covenants with us (John 3:3-5) is that these covenants are in fact schools to teach us heavenly conduct, thereby acclimating us to the culture of heaven.
Richard The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent. Jn 6:29
Clearly, faith is what is needed, not works. Now I don’t want to teach against works. But the LDS tend towards legalism, so faith alone needs to taught against LDS errors. If the LDS tended towards antinomianism, then I would emphasize, “we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments Jn 15:10
Richard Question: "Was the Father always God?"
Gaz The fact of the matter is, we don't know. Christ stated that he was imatateing the actions of his Father (John 5:19) Whether The Father was the first intelligence in all of time to become aware and become perfect, we don't know.
Richard But I thought that one of the purposes of continued revelation was to clear up problems. Yet the LDS are confused about things which evangelicals think are clear from the scriptures.
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. Ps 90:2
Richard Question: "So there is no inherent difference between Jesus and people in general? "
Gaz On a basic level, no. What separates Christ and his glory from us in a finer sence is his strength of will and character. Christ is our example, set before us as a light unto our feet. (Ps. 119:105, John 13:15, 14:6)
Richard I obviously disagree. Christ was always God. We are not God and never will be.
Richard Question: "You first stated that God gave us commandments to follow. Now you write that we are saved through grace through covenants. Does God justify the ungodly? (Rom 4:5). Who went home justified, the Pharisee or the Publican? Luke 18 "
Gaz Richard, what is a covenant? It is a contract, an agreement to adhere to a mode of conduct as perscribed by God. The reason God demands these covenants with us (John 3:3-5) is that these covenants are in fact schools to teach us heavenly conduct, thereby acclimating us to the culture of heaven.
Richard The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent. Jn 6:29
Clearly, faith is what is needed, not works. Now I don’t want to teach against works. But the LDS tend towards legalism, so faith alone needs to taught against LDS errors. If the LDS tended towards antinomianism, then I would emphasize, “we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments Jn 15:10
Richard Question: "Was the Father always God?"
Gaz The fact of the matter is, we don't know. Christ stated that he was imatateing the actions of his Father (John 5:19) Whether The Father was the first intelligence in all of time to become aware and become perfect, we don't know.
Richard But I thought that one of the purposes of continued revelation was to clear up problems. Yet the LDS are confused about things which evangelicals think are clear from the scriptures.
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. Ps 90:2
If you're going to believe in the Bible and Christianity, I have to say that the LDS view of the Godhead really does make the most sense. Why else would you have Jesus always talking about his father? Why would you have 3 different personages present at Jesus' baptism? Why else would he talk his father's will?
But the problem with that view is that it is polytheistic. The Bible says over and over again that there is only one god.
What makes more sense is that the Bible isn't really the word of god. Hence the contradictions. Not to mention the atrocities. Just another god myth.
But the problem with that view is that it is polytheistic. The Bible says over and over again that there is only one god.
What makes more sense is that the Bible isn't really the word of god. Hence the contradictions. Not to mention the atrocities. Just another god myth.
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_richardMdBorn
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:05 am
Hi fubecar:fubecabr wrote:If you're going to believe in the Bible and Christianity, I have to say that the LDS view of the Godhead really does make the most sense. Why else would you have Jesus always talking about his father? Why would you have 3 different personages present at Jesus' baptism? Why else would he talk his father's will?
But the problem with that view is that it is polytheistic. The Bible says over and over again that there is only one god.
What makes more sense is that the Bible isn't really the word of god. Hence the contradictions. Not to mention the atrocities. Just another god myth.
The New Testament clearly teaches that there is a sense in which God is one and God is three. If the LDS view makes the most sense of the New Testament, why does it not appear in either the New Testament or the ECFs?