Joseph Smith's Early Histories

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_grindael
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Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _grindael »

I'm finishing a Blog Article on this... it will be up soon...

The claimed 1820 vision (1832 History) was an invention of Joseph's to cement his authority in the wake of Ezra Booth's apostasy and letters, and the problems with Bishop Edward Partridge. (Read the introduction). Joseph didn't finish it, but abandoned it.

Some claim that Joseph had some kind of epiphany in his youth, that it (and the story of Mormon in the Book of Mormon) are based on. All the actual historical evidence overturns any claimed 1820 vision. The problems with the dating in the 1832 History (16 years old), and his placement of the conversion of members of his family to Presbyterianism, (in between the two claimed visions), the teachings of the missionaries in the early 30's, (Religious excitement, Joseph prays, answered by an angel), Walmart. McLellin's letter to his family, etc. Peter Bauder account... (no Christian experience, though Joseph is "translating" the Bible and claims it is by the "Holy Spirit")

Then there is the Cowdery/Smith 1834 History which keeps that narrative (angel answered him). That was written because of the attacks by Doctor P. Hurlburt and others, and the publication of Mormonism Unvailed. Cowdery was probably aware of the 1832 History (he copied letters into the notebook that contained it) but he didn't use it to craft the 34-35 History with Joseph. Cowdery was at Joseph's home on Feb. 27th 1835 when he wrote Letter IV which is the account of the angel and Joseph wanting to know "if a Supreme Being did exist". They were rather inseparable all through that period, and fashioned the angelic ordination accounts together, having made a covenant that no weapon should prosper against them in Dec. 1834 and then Cowdery being rewarded with the Ass. President gig.

Later that year, Joseph tried again to establish his history with a new Journal, didn't copy the 1832 History into it, but the 1834-35 History, and that Journal bregins with a newly crafted version of the claimed 1820 vision given to Robert Matthews. People claim that the "first vision" was just too sacred for Joseph to recount, so he kept it to himself, but one of the first people he recounts it to is someone he thought was a murderer and agent of Satan? It was all for show to get the account into the Journal and document it. There is still the problem of them both having bodies at this point because of the Lectures on Faith. Joseph did not develop that aspect of his theology until later, and that is why Hyde was so wrong about it and the Holy Ghost. Joseph constantly changed his own "revelations" it is not surprising that he would do so with his History.
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_deacon blues
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _deacon blues »

grindael wrote:I'm finishing a Blog Article on this... it will be up soon...


Later that year, Joseph tried again to establish his history with a new Journal, didn't copy the 1832 History into it, but the 1834-35 History, and that Journal bregins with a newly crafted version of the claimed 1820 vision given to Robert Matthews. People claim that the "first vision" was just too sacred for Joseph to recount, so he kept it to himself, but one of the first people he recounts it to is someone he thought was a murderer and agent of Satan? It was all for show to get the account into the Journal and document it. There is still the problem of them both having bodies at this point because of the Lectures on Faith. Joseph did not develop that aspect of his theology until later, and that is why Hyde was so wrong about it and the Holy Ghost. Joseph constantly changed his own "revelations" it is not surprising that he would do so with his History.


This is a great reply to the "it's too sacred to relate" position. Joseph's vision was so sacred that Robert Matthews, a scalliwag and felon, was considered a most suitable audience for Joseph's early account of his first vision. Thanks Grindael.
_grindael
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _grindael »

Yeah, DB, it's amazing to me the arguments they come up with. Nothing was "sacred" to Smith. He said in 1838 that he went out and told a few of the clergy of the day and they all banded together just to persecute HIM. And it created such an uproar that NO ONE ever heard of this claimed vision! Was it after this, that it then got "too sacred" to talk about?

It's a ridiculous argument.
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Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_grindael
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _grindael »

There have been a plethora of Mormon authors who, in the last decade or so have been publishing on "folk magic", in an effort to reconcile the Smith family history with more legitimate religious practices. Over and over I read about how us moderns just don't comprehend what it was like in nineteenth century America and how hard it is to understand the "folk" and their magical ways. In a desperate attempt to try and legitimize dowsing, Eric A Eliason writes:

The presumption that the difference between magic and proper belief is something intrinsic rather than relational to thedefiner is still very much alive. But on close analysis, complex definitions distinguishing "magical" from "modern" thinking rarely amount to more than "What you do is superstition, while what I do is science or true religion." One of the biggest surprises rural students have in American university folklore courses, including at BYU, is discovering their suburban peers ned to be taught what divining rods are and how to use them. Today, regardless of class, race, education, wealth, region, or religion, rural students tend to know of holding a forked stick gently in one's hand to feel for the downward tug that points to underground water and a good spot for a well. ZDowsing seems not only understandable, but essential, in rural areas where families are on their own to secure water, and where hired well drillers make no guarantees and charge by the foot. City kids are shocked that their country classmates could be such shameless occult dabblers in a modern age where you don't have to think about where water comes from. You just turn on the tap and out it comes--like magic. My rural LDS students don't understand why their suburban counterparts have so little respect for or belief in a common spiritual gift often displayed by their educated and reasonable biships and stake presidents. It is simply wrong to assume that divining practices are some long-abandoned exotic aspect of America's frontier past rather than a continuing worldwide phenomenon, used not only by rural Americans, but by soldiers in Vietnam to find enemy tunnels, by oil and precious metal prospecting companies, and even by contemporary salvage professionals to recover, yes, lost treasure. But none of this means that there are not bogus scams, such as the well-developed industry of luring American investors to fund "sure fire" efforts to recover caches of loot hidden by Japanese soldiers retreating from the Philippines at the end of World War II. These always seem to need a little more financing and never seem to produce for investors. (Seer Stones, Salamanders and Early Mormon "Folk Magic", , BYU Studies Quarterly, 4-5-2016, pg. 82) https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org ... c_2016.pdf


So, is he right about how prevalent dowsing is in rural America. I grew up in Oregon, and was around farmers all the time, worked on farms in the summers, drove tractors, and never heard of one farmer who used divining rods for anything. This was in the 1970's. Have things changed?

Dowsing is bogus. But even when they are tested and fail, the dowsers still can't believe it. And they always fail in controlled testing. So... what to make of this? This is a great video by Richard Dawkins and Dowsers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdjYGaINLwo
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One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
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_Lemmie
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _Lemmie »

This is unbelievable. I grew up in Arizona, my grandfather was a dairy farmer, my aunt married a horse rancher, etc., etc. NO ONE ever suggested dowsing as a legitimate form of finding water.
...Today, regardless of class, race, education, wealth, region, or religion, rural students tend to know of holding a forked stick gently in one's hand to feel for the downward tug that points to underground water and a good spot for a well. ZDowsing seems not only understandable, but essential, in rural areas where families are on their own to secure water, and where hired well drillers make no guarantees and charge by the foot. City kids are shocked that their country classmates could be such shameless occult dabblers in a modern age where you don't have to think about where water comes from. You just turn on the tap and out it comes--like magic. My rural LDS students don't understand why their suburban counterparts have so little respect for or belief in a common spiritual gift often displayed by their educated and reasonable biships and stake presidents. It is simply wrong to assume that divining practices are some long-abandoned exotic aspect of America's frontier past rather than a continuing worldwide phenomenon....

That's utter nonsense. He's lying, or else he has the stupidest set of students ever to attend university.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _Res Ipsa »

When I was a kid, I ran into dowsing in the eastern, more rural, part of the state. When a family friend was looking for a new well site, I tried it with a forked willow stick. Sure enough, at the place where the other dossiers had found water, I could feel the stick pull down to the ground. Of course, I’d already been told what the stick was supposed to do and where it was supposed to do it.

I never heard any LDS person refer to dowsing as a spiritual gift.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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_Maksutov
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _Maksutov »

Res Ipsa wrote:When I was a kid, I ran into dowsing in the eastern, more rural, part of the state. When a family friend was looking for a new well site, I tried it with a forked willow stick. Sure enough, at the place where the other dossiers had found water, I could feel the stick pull down to the ground. Of course, I’d already been told what the stick was supposed to do and where it was supposed to do it.

I never heard any LDS person refer to dowsing as a spiritual gift.


When this subject came up on the Mormon Historians Facebook page, Maxine Hanks and others chimed in with confirmations of dowsing in their childhoods and in the present...as believers. It's a thing.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _Lemmie »

Res Ipsa wrote:When I was a kid, I ran into dowsing in the eastern, more rural, part of the state. When a family friend was looking for a new well site, I tried it with a forked willow stick. Sure enough, at the place where the other dossiers had found water, I could feel the stick pull down to the ground. Of course, I’d already been told what the stick was supposed to do and where it was supposed to do it.

I never heard any LDS person refer to dowsing as a spiritual gift.

Which state?
_Lemmie
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _Lemmie »

Maksutov wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:When I was a kid, I ran into dowsing in the eastern, more rural, part of the state. When a family friend was looking for a new well site, I tried it with a forked willow stick. Sure enough, at the place where the other dossiers had found water, I could feel the stick pull down to the ground. Of course, I’d already been told what the stick was supposed to do and where it was supposed to do it.

I never heard any LDS person refer to dowsing as a spiritual gift.


When this subject came up on the Mormon Historians Facebook page, Maxine Hanks and others chimed in with confirmations of dowsing in their childhoods and in the present...as believers. It's a thing.

:lol: it's a real thing? Wow.. I'll have to read up on this. Although I do recall a certain blogger saying he was a believer in the twiggy art...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38845&start=84
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Joseph Smith's Early Histories

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Twiggy art. :lol: :lol:
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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