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 Post subject: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:13 pm 
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I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church.

She was 65. Been married twice with two children. The second marriage was a Temple marriage and one she just could not get over. He just left her ..she would be so happy then I would find her outside in tears because she simply could not get over this man. She stayed away from the church for many years after this marriage..but always believed. As an ex Mormon I was careful because I really loved her and cared about her. I did not go to places in my life where I learned about different aspects of the church or shared with her those things that disconnected me from her own beliefs.. In the turmoil of getting herself together..her father always made her feel less than.. I do not have a clue why he would think that. She was a wonderful mother. She was so talented..in music...in making cakes..(winning an awardsJ)!! and in her creativity in sewing and imagination..so talented and on top of all that ...a nurse.

In any case, she said one day..I will go back to the bishop..confess my sins..and get back to the Tempe that I love. Knowing this is the worse thing she could do...I still kept my mouth shut..and said ...remember you have genuine friends that love you..in perfection nor not.

This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be.

I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Candygal, I'm so very sorry for your loss, all of them. I know all too well the extra pain a loss via suicide causes and I suspect many here can relate to you as well. Too many extra "what-ifs" to run through, too many unanswered or perhaps, unanswerable questions. Suicide of this nature is not logical and so it likely won't ever make much sense or be totally clear. I know it is still murky for me and I've got nearly 15 years of distance on coming to grips with my loss and I doubt the clarity is ever totally there.

It sounds like your friend was dealing with a lot and it sounds like you were trying to do what you could to be the kind of friend we all need in our lives. I obviously don't know your whole story but if you behave in the real world as you do on these forums than I trust you're a kind-hearted and caring individual. I don't know how you could ask any more of yourself than that. I do know that one can totally destroy one's self with the second guessing and blame game though and I doubt very highly your friend would have wanted that for you.

Missing your loved ones and your feelings of anger are pretty natural reactions but I know personally I could get lost in the anger sometimes. I know one of the most important things for me was finding a support network that understood what I was going through and that I could open up to. I'd highly recommend starting with the Suicide Prevention Hotline's "Loss Survivors" resource page if you think you might need help in the search. If you need some extra vent time or just need someone to talk to, don't hesitate for one second to PM me.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Thank you so much...all those what ifs..and those things that keep one awake at night..I am so tired of that. My hope is like the first line of the obituary...she has finally found peace. There is an anger...but that I have learned is a useless emotion when there is nothing you can do. Thank you for your response. I just hope that her level of happiness in getting back to church..was not brought down by that level we all know..you are not good enough or wait until you are worthy..when those words really have nothing to do with the desire of her heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:32 pm 
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I am so sorry for your losses, candygal. I don't think it is understandable because, like Xeno said, it isn't a matter of logic or reason. If you find yourself getting mired in feelings of guilt or responsibility, I think a therapist or a support group could help.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:50 pm 
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Thank you...there is no rhyme or reason..Perhaps it is time for me to sort out all those feelings with a therapist..thanks to all. I am glad you are all here. I realize that many people or going through things like this. I see suicides increasing just on the news all the time..makes me wonder what in the hell is going on!


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:55 pm 
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I attended a funeral for one today.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:26 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
I attended a funeral for one today.

I am so sorry. It is a senseless thing that is so hard to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:03 pm 
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candygal wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I attended a funeral for one today.

I am so sorry. It is a senseless thing that is so hard to understand.


Thank you. It's like blowing a hole in a family, in their future. It's so many things that will take a lifetime to process and live with.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:41 pm 
God

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candygal wrote:
I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church.

[SNIP!]

I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.

Suicide occurs for Mormons the same reasons they occur for anyone else, a sense of loss, being unloved, being less than, and more. Mormons might have reasons unique to them, but it's the same exact causes underlying them. I will tell you about myself.

Me, I grew up primarily as a foster child, living in various homes, etc. I saw a police officer when I was like 7 or so, from that day forward I wanted to be like that, to help others, and I knew to be the best I would have to observe, experience, and learn, so I did so intentionally and directly. Everything that has to do with good and right I directly learned and was a part of. The church was key to this also because it provided a "better way" than any other, and I also wanted that "Eternal Family", to have that joy and success good LDS have. I did everything I could growing up to learn to be the best person in every way, physically, mentally, spiritually, for myself and for my future family. Understand also that I believed it was 100% IMPOSSIBLE for me to EVER commit Suicide. I believed I was that strong, because of all the things I had went through in life and rose above them, nothing could take me down. I knew well all the methods of success and successful thinking. I developed many skills and understandings of the important things in life due to them.

Sadly, I chose a wife who didn't live by values but by image and materialism so she was very judgmental and this caused my health to be destroyed as she continued to destroy our family and me otherwise. I kept our marriage together, while she was always trying to destroy it. Eventually, she finally did permanently, and this destroyed me. It was one thing to lose a family, but to lose it for no good reason was something I couldn't accept. My family was everything to me, everything I had worked my life to create, so to see it taken away and to see the "fruits" of those actions, things I knew would happen, i.e. children not being in life where they should be had I been there father, and fully been so, it was just too much.

One year after my wife went on vacation to Malaysia with my 3 boys and didn't come back and also at the same time causing our house to be repossessed because she used my income which was for the house to pay for her "business" (6 years she spent more than she made), one year after that I put a cheap gun I had bought to my head and pulled the trigger.... not once but 3 times before the fire truck came and I stopped. Turns out the cheap gun wouldn't load the round into the chamber unless you did it a certain way. Interestingly the year before when I was selling off our house my Glock somehow "disappeared" even though I was keeping a close eye on it. I think I know "who" took it, a nice guy, but I can't be sure. I would for sure be dead had I used that gun.

What was going through my head? I felt like I had failed, the obesity, the not accomplishing of my career goals due to my ex, the loss of my family, and I had done and experienced everything in life already and so there was nothing more to live for, the thing I most wanted in life was no more, so there was no point. I knew in theory that I could move on etc. etc. but it wasn't what I wanted. What I wanted in life was taken for no just reason, and wasn't even an accident, it was intentional, so I was tired, I had tried and failed. I had no reason to live anymore. I tried to start over, and I did, but my health caught up to me and as many here know for 3 years I didn't work and I couldn't even barely take a shower my energy because so bad. There were even 2 periods in which I went two months without showering, usually it was just a few days or a week/week and a half etc. I might go. Those here however rather than being understanding, they were emotionally abusive telling me all kinds of terrible things.

Finally, I got the proper medical help I was needing, what could have taken 6 months to fix took 3 years, and I developed even more issues because of it. Anyway, I've been working again for the last year, but at the start of that my Bishop was given me serious problems, I almost didn't make it. I almost committed suicide again because he was cutting me off being complete without understanding that all I had left to fix was getting the right Insomnia medication so I could sleep, just needed a few more weeks, a month at the most while working with my doctor to figure it out. Fortunately I was able to work it out and get the job quick, but after all that support my Bishop's gave, right at the end the Church almost killed me (technically the Bishop).

Why was I likely that time to commit suicide? Because I was still in a vulnerable state of health, I still didn't have the energy for anything and the brain needs energy to best function. So, loss was still my life. Only when I was able to get my energy fixed then did I feel more in control of my life again. Still have work to do, but I have no intention of doing suicide again, but never expected it in the first place, so I can't say yet what the future will bring, I still don't have control, just hanging on making it to work. But, I'm continuing to work at it, trying to get myself to the places I need to so step by step progress can be made to be my real self again.

----

You really don't understand the Gospel if you think going to the Temple is "the worst thing she could do". The Temple heals, it's where we are literally in the presence of God and we are just as he is. His power is around and within us. Being in the world and the loss of that power and love, as well as the love of those most important, is what most makes mankind weak. You think maybe "you" could have done something, but you couldn't. This issue is between us and God. Other than God, the only place we know that power and love is within our Family's, and the loss of that is unbearable. It's not about the spouse, it's about the family unit.... There is something about it that makes or destroy's. And even with it dysfunctional, things can be better than without it. When you have some 80% of children who've been to prison grew up in single parent homes, there's clearly something to be said about keeping a family together and some of us are more sensitive to that whatever the background.

Ultimately, Suicide is complex and varies by person what the causes are and their weaknesses or circumstances that may push them to do it. Me, I can't understand how people who have everything then commit suicide. They have a family, they have wealth, etc. Those people must just be broken. The rest of us, we "get broken" by life. What is the conclusion? I think it's simply we all have a breaking point.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:30 am 
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cg,

Thanks to my curiosity about what faqs was posting about in Celestial, I happened upon your OP. I am not going to be at my best at 3 a.m. my time, but let me give you a reply.

You wrote, "This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be."

You DID make a difference. You loved your friend well while she lived.

I and every member of my family are suicide survivors. The grief associated with suicide is different than other types of grief. For example, when a loved one dies from a sudden heart attack, we feel a deep sense of shock and loss but hardly ever ask ourselves "what if", as if we had the power to prevent it.

Suicide is a different animal altogether. We live with conflicted emotions and thoughts. We feel the deep loss, we cry, we retreat within ourselves, we experience anger and we beat ourselves up with "what if's" , as if we had the power to heal the brain of another when experts have a tough time doing it.

This grief is called complicated grief.

I think you should see a therapist and here is why. You have a right to feel sad and angry and helpless. And you have the right to live. I mean, really live, cg. See if you can locate a therapist who helps folks who are suicide survivors.

In the mean time, know that you gave your friend what she needed when she needed it from you.

See a therapist, girl. It will help you through this sorrow filled time and give you a place to unpack your complicated grief.

You have a right to live.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:18 am 
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I'm so sorry.

And I echo Jersey Girl about the life she did have and the positive and good you did share with her.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:47 am 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:
cg,

Thanks to my curiosity about what faqs was posting about in Celestial, I happened upon your opening post. I am not going to be at my best at 3 a.m. my time, but let me give you a reply.

You wrote, "This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be."

You DID make a difference. You loved your friend well while she lived.

I and every member of my family are suicide survivors. The grief associated with suicide is different than other types of grief. For example, when a loved one dies from a sudden heart attack, we feel a deep sense of shock and loss but hardly ever ask ourselves "what if", as if we had the power to prevent it.

Suicide is a different animal altogether. We live with conflicted emotions and thoughts. We feel the deep loss, we cry, we retreat within ourselves, we experience anger and we beat ourselves up with "what if's" , as if we had the power to heal the brain of another when experts have a tough time doing it.

This grief is called complicated grief.

I think you should see a therapist and here is why. You have a right to feel sad and angry and helpless. And you have the right to live. I mean, really live, cg. See if you can locate a therapist who helps folks who are suicide survivors.

In the mean time, know that you gave your friend what she needed when she needed it from you.

See a therapist, girl. It will help you through this sorrow filled time and give you a place to unpack your complicated grief.

You have a right to live.
Thank you so much. We had such good times and religion itself was so not part of the good friendship. My only concern as far as the LDS church was that they would expound her poor self esteem. Thank you. You are good friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:48 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I'm so sorry.

And I echo Jersey Girl about the life she did have and the positive and good you did share with her.
I am so glad that I have you to talk to sometimes. There are friends on the other board that I could have shared this with..but was banned until the 24th. So be it. One thing I have learned..is knowing what true friends are and can be in my own becoming. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:08 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:00 pm
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candygal wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I'm so sorry.

And I echo Jersey Girl about the life she did have and the positive and good you did share with her.
I am so glad that I have you to talk to sometimes. There are friends on the other board that I could have shared this with..but was banned until the 24th. So be it. One thing I have learned..is knowing what true friends are and can be in my own becoming. Thank you.


I am glad, too. You are a good friend to me!


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:12 pm 
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cg let us know how you are getting on with this, okay? It's a long hard road. Your MormonDiscussions.com friends and acquaintances care how you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:09 am 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:
cg let us know how you are getting on with this, okay? It's a long hard road. Your MormonDiscussions.com friends and acquaintances care how you are.

Thank you so much. This week I am hoping to find a non LDS counselor...someone out of the box that can separate church from suicide is a plus for me..For some reason I feel like I should have opened up more and perhaps her disappointment would have been less..trying to reach her daughter, too. I have a quilt she gave me..I believe it should stay in the family.

Thanks so much. There are tentacles of church that remains in the reasons of my sister's suicide. For LDS.fags...my wonderful and active priesthood holding father told my sister..that she would never see her daughter again ..(my niece who drowned) unless she went back to church and put her life back together..how many nights did she here my father's voice before she thought that she had just failed? It is not that any religion can be blamed..but the conscious thoughts ingrained steers a future..in this case, that she would never. see. her. daughter. again.

With the latest suicide it was a repeat...a process where I can return, repent..and become ..somewhere they did not let this progression take place..and sure..both parties are to blame..one for not extending an arm of patience..and the other..just giving up.

This woman and my sister are my heart..my best friends..I cannot see where the light went out or why..so I think I missed something..again. :cry: I have tried to find help before here in the valley..everyone is LDS..maybe this shouldn't matter?

To me, the Temple was the worst thing she could do...to relive covenants that have been broken..to a realization that the man she loved and promised was no longer at the alter...and that God's love and Jesus Christ..we conditional in their love. The LDS was the worse thing for this woman..at least at tis time and place and space in her life.


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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Not only LDS people are dying. It is increasing throughout the USA. I'm not sure of any comparable trends in other countries. Maybe someone has that data?

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 Post subject: Re: Celestial...Give Me Some Answers. Another Mormon Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 am 
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You can only control what you do. If you worry excessively about other people's choices, you will only harm yourself in the process.

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