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 Post subject: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:18 pm 
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On another thread a reference was given to D&C section 19 and the atonement.

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

In 3 Nephi 11:11 it says:

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

Now, for me, when I look at writings of Joseph Smith I believe his thoughts were created from reviewing centuries of religious writings.

If you google "bitter cup" Protestant theology you get a lot of different hits and explanations.

any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:13 pm 
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karl61 wrote:
Now, for me, when I look at writings of Joseph Smith I believe his thoughts were created from reviewing centuries of religious writings. . . any thoughts?

Yes: "You're just now noticing this?"

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 Post subject: Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:53 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
karl61 wrote:
Now, for me, when I look at writings of Joseph Smith I believe his thoughts were created from reviewing centuries of religious writings. . . any thoughts?

Yes: "You're just now noticing this?"


I think it's just appearing little by little, line upon line to me. I think he took a lot of terms like infinite atonement from Calvinist and Quakers and Anabaptist. Those terms may not be used in today's protestant sermons by were likely used by preachers in Europe and America. Alexander Campbell certainly made the case in his little pamphlet that the Book of Mormon contained all the hot issues discussed in church's in the upper New York state area.

But I still need a little clarification on the bitter cup, especially the D&C verse

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

It goes on to the next verse after the word shrink and why did he not want to drink it and why use the last word of shrink.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:58 am 
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karl61 wrote:
I think it's just appearing little by little, line upon line to me. I think he took a lot of terms like infinite atonement from Calvinist and Quakers and Anabaptist. Those terms may not be used in today's protestant sermons by were likely used by preachers in Europe and America. Alexander Campbell certainly made the case in his little pamphlet that the Book of Mormon contained all the hot issues discussed in church's in the upper New York state area.

But I still need a little clarification on the bitter cup, especially the D&C verse

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

It goes on to the next verse after the word shrink and why did he not want to drink it and why use the last word of shrink.

Karl61, are there reasons you are looking beyond the obvious meaning, bitter cup is his suffering and death nailed to a cross?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:19 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
karl61 wrote:
I think it's just appearing little by little, line upon line to me. I think he took a lot of terms like infinite atonement from Calvinist and Quakers and Anabaptist. Those terms may not be used in today's protestant sermons by were likely used by preachers in Europe and America. Alexander Campbell certainly made the case in his little pamphlet that the Book of Mormon contained all the hot issues discussed in church's in the upper New York state area.

But I still need a little clarification on the bitter cup, especially the D&C verse

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

It goes on to the next verse after the word shrink and why did he not want to drink it and why use the last word of shrink.

Karl61, are there reasons you are looking beyond the obvious meaning, bitter cup is his suffering and death nailed to a cross?


Thank you huckelberry for providing the clarification. A lot of things fly over my head.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:27 am 
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Could be that in the act of atonement by taking upon himself the sins of the world he 'shrinks' from being fully God which sacrifice is finished on the cross. Then taking back his life again he regains full status as God. Thus God itself is renewed pushing back natural entropy. Just off the cuff here reading this moment. More could be said about this.

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