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 Post subject: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:54 pm 
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didyoumythme wrote:
If the same priesthood is here, just like biblical times, then we would see miracles today.

The criteria for what would be accepted as a miracle has changed. In the past, if someone blew a mouthful of cornstarch at a flame they would say it was a fire-breathing miracle. If someone did it today, we could call it combustion.

One of the best arguments for Mormonism was put forth years ago in the Salt Lake Tribune. The lady in the article said, "It may be a fairy story, but it is our fairy story". The truth in allegory is not found in actual events, the teller of the allegory or even the allegory itself. It is found when it inspires us to be a kinder and more loving people. There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are what is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:09 pm 
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moksha wrote:
There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are what is true.


+1,000,000

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
moksha wrote:
There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are what is true.


+1,000,000


Ah yes! Turn to the humanity aspect and we begin to get on the right track, not the societal aspect. I also like this very much!

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:18 pm 
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moksha wrote:
The truth in allegory is not found in actual events, the teller of the allegory or even the allegory itself. It is found when it inspires us to be a kinder and more loving people.

In that case, it's the inspiration in allegory, not "truth."

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There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are what is true.

Nope. Were such the case, then wonderful Catholics, wonderful Scientologists, and wonderful Jehovah's witnesses would also be what is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:42 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
moksha wrote:
The truth in allegory is not found in actual events, the teller of the allegory or even the allegory itself. It is found when it inspires us to be a kinder and more loving people.

In that case, it's the inspiration in allegory, not "truth."

Cutting off the last sentence, "There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are what is true," does seem to affect the meaning of what is intended to be true. Sort of like if you chopped off the last part of that John F. Kennedy quotation, "Ask not what your country can do for you." Taken by itself Kennedy's remark sounds like a summary of Republican ideology rather than the message he intended.

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There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are what is true.

Nope. Were such the case, then wonderful Catholics, wonderful Scientologists, and wonderful Jehovah's witnesses would also be what is true.

Maybe there can be a universal sense of truth when people are nice to one another that extends beyond any religious affiliation.***


***Moksha seems to be using the word truth in a non-binary sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:45 am 
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If that's an argument for truth, there are a lot of "true" groups out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:32 am 
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moksha wrote:
Maybe there can be a universal sense of truth when people are nice to one another that extends beyond any religious affiliation.***

Could it also include "nice to one another that [still holds even if your family member is no longer associated with your] religious affiliation" ?

That would address some very practical issues related to shunning, telling others they will canot be with their families unless you believe THEIR truth, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:31 am 
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moksha wrote:
***Moksha seems to be using the word truth in a non-binary sense.

If so, then that's moksha's problem. Moksha should realize that Moksha doesn't get to invent Moksha's own definitions for words.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:22 am 
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Doesn't it boil down to treating others and oneself fairly? I think good people everywhere have the golden rule in common. It is results based. However, Religion then layers authority worship on top of that and charges for their trick of getting people to believe the nonsense. In reality, Mormons are good people because they practice certain principles common to good people everywhere and these principles are free to all. So, I think the best argument for LDS truth as results based really is counter-productive from the brethren's perspective as it exposes their magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
moksha wrote:
***Moksha seems to be using the word truth in a non-binary sense.

If so, then that's moksha's problem. Moksha should realize that Moksha doesn't get to invent Moksha's own definitions for words.

:lol: :lol: I think Moksha was sending up another group's propensity to non-binarily use 'truth' when they don't have it on their side.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
moksha wrote:
***Moksha seems to be using the word truth in a non-binary sense.

If so, then that's moksha's problem. Moksha should realize that Moksha doesn't get to invent Moksha's own definitions for words.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:08 pm 
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moksha wrote:
didyoumythme wrote:
If the same priesthood is here, just like biblical times, then we would see miracles today.

The criteria for what would be accepted as a miracle has changed. In the past, if someone blew a mouthful of cornstarch at a flame they would say it was a fire-breathing miracle. If someone did it today, we could call it combustion.


Clark's Law (the author - not me) "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

I think that applies.

Although I also think that many Mormons believe in active miracles and the like. It's just the people whom I'd tend to believe don't talk about them openly. I'm sure were we to have and U&T and could look at the actual historic events we'd discover many purported miracles in the past didn't happen, were misinterpretations, or got exaggerated with tellings (like the crickets and the seagulls). But I personally believe many were real. And I think they still happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:27 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
I'm sure were we to have and U&T and could look at the actual historic events we'd discover many purported miracles in the past didn't happen, were misinterpretations, or got exaggerated with tellings (like the crickets and the seagulls). But I personally believe many were real. And I think they still happen.

Many wonders are yet to be discovered. In the meantime, we still have that guy behind the curtain.*


* I do hope that little dog from Kansas refrains from peeing on this leg.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:30 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Moksha should realize that Moksha doesn't get to invent Moksha's own definitions for words.

Well, that's no fun! Anyway, inventing definitions is part of my heritage, the same as it is for most folks here except for Jersey Girl.*


*What with being from the tribe of Snookie and all that.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:36 am 
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I think truth and morality is being mixed up here:

"It is found when it inspires us to be a kinder and more loving people. There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are a good example of what is true moral."


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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
I think Moksha was sending up another group's propensity to non-binarily use 'truth' when they don't have it on their side.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, because I've never seen Mormons members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints use the word that way.

RockSlider wrote:
I think truth and morality is being mixed up here:

"It is found when it inspires us to be a kinder and more loving people. There are so very many wonderful Mormons. They are a good example of what is true moral."

You see, Moksha? This is how words work.

Thank you, Rockslider.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
I think Moksha was sending up another group's propensity to non-binarily use 'truth' when they don't have it on their side.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, because I've never seen Mormons members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints use the word that way.

Do you mean 'truth' used non-binarily or 'niceness' as a euphemism for 'truth'? I'm losing track! Moksha is the master at this, I am simply an admirer.

If it is the former, where non-truth is not necessarily not-true, (hence no binary true-not true decison tree branch but rather a never-ending contiuum), then ClarkGoble does it in practically every post he writes here. :wink: Truth as niceness? Then yes, I would agree. Although there seems to be a fair amount of touchiness from some believers when it is noted that their expression of their version of truth is not particularly nice. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Religion can provide a sense of increased purpose in life for people who are socially disconnected.

https://www.psypost.org/2018/08/people-who-are-socially-disconnected-turn-to-religion-to-restore-a-sense-of-purpose-to-their-lives-52082

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 Post subject: Re: Best Argument for LDS Truth
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:41 pm 
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My Dear, Moksha, conjunctive stage? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/b4/28 ... bc77d7.jpg. I’ve come to this stage which involves seeing both positive and negative aspects of the 2 previous stages (literal religious and skeptical), and consciously taking the best from each. So, yeah, I see truth in some positive effects of how Mormons live - service-oriented, high standards, etc. But I also see some negative - like the back-stabbing once they discover you don’t deify “our” financially corrupt leaders.

Still, I go to church pretty regularly partly to appease & partly because I see benefits from the unbeatable sense of community for our family. And I’ve seen studies showing that social connection was the highest factor (even above diet, exercise etc) for longevity.

I also think it’s rare and difficult but important to avoid polarized thinking. Mormons or any other group are not 100% good or bad - not true or false - but a messy mix of it all.


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