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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Here is a fun quote, but it might fit better under the heading of Mormon Astronomy.

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In Doctrine of Salvation Vol. 1 page 88-89 Joseph Fielding Smith said under Earth to be Celestial Sun, "It is my opinion that the great stars that we see, including our sun, are celestial worlds; at least worlds that have passed on to their exaltation or other final resurrected status. This is in conflict, of course, with the teachings of scientific men, who declare that the sun is losing its energy and gradually cooling off and will eventually be a dead world... And this world, so benighted at present, and so esteemed by infidels, as observed by Brother Clements, when it becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the son."

Take that so-called "Laws of Thermodynamics" and "Law of Conservation of Matter" for we are talking about the LDS doctrine of Celestialized Worlds that have been properly baptized (great flood) tithed (harvesting of resources), and anointed with oil (Exxon Valdez).

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:18 am 
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moksha wrote:
and anointed with oil (Exxon Valdez).
this time i've decoded your message at once;

penguins are criptyc...
Exxon Valdez ...

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Mittens wrote:
Don't Mormons teach animal sacrifice after Jesus's sacrifice ?

Don't Christians believe in symbolically cannibalizing Jesus?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:14 am 
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Great find Moksha!

Quote:
Joseph Fielding Smith
In Doctrine of Salvation Vol. 1 page 88-89 Joseph Fielding Smith said under Earth to be Celestial Sun, "It is my opinion that the great stars that we see, including our sun, are celestial worlds; at least worlds that have passed on to their exaltation or other final resurrected status. This is in conflict, of course, with the teachings of scientific men, who declare that the sun is losing its energy and gradually cooling off and will eventually be a dead world... And this world, so benighted at present, and so esteemed by infidels, as observed by Brother Clements, when it becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the son."


This is confirmation that if a religious man, such as Joseph Smith, simply proclaims something, others will believe it, regardless of what evidence there is. The gullibility of man when it comes to someone in authority or citing an authority is pretty spooky if the subject changes, say, from something harmless such as which world is the celestial one, to, human sacrifice is back, and that means your own kids are in danger.

Mormonism's leadership understanding of science is so stupidly backwards (or was?) that it seems to be to simply have to reflect on their understanding of God. Just what can or do they actually know about either? And hence justified doubts raise up in the breasts of man. It's not that the world is wicked, it's that they don't simply assent when assertions are made, thus even Mormon judgments about what wickedness is may be malnutritioning the human spirit instead of sustaining it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:57 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Great find Moksha!

This discourse is a good reason why religious people should be wary when religious leaders put forth speculations which they know to be contrary to science. It is also an example to religious leaders of why they should not make too outlandish of religious speculations.

For the most part, Mormons agree with the idea that God follows the rules of the known universe, although some will engage in magical thinking when it helps to make the allegory seem literal.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:06 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Here is a fun quote, but it might fit better under the heading of Mormon Astronomy.

Quote:
In Doctrine of Salvation Vol. 1 page 88-89 Joseph Fielding Smith said under Earth to be Celestial Sun, "It is my opinion that the great stars that we see, including our sun, are celestial worlds; at least worlds that have passed on to their exaltation or other final resurrected status. This is in conflict, of course, with the teachings of scientific men, who declare that the sun is losing its energy and gradually cooling off and will eventually be a dead world... And this world, so benighted at present, and so esteemed by infidels, as observed by Brother Clements, when it becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the son."

Take that so-called "Laws of Thermodynamics" and "Law of Conservation of Matter" for we are talking about the LDS doctrine of Celestialized Worlds that have been properly baptized (great flood) tithed (harvesting of resources), and anointed with oil (Exxon Valdez).


Since this is the dude who said we'd never land on the Moon, we can dismiss his ravings as pretentious and pious brain farts. In fact, I can probably say with confidence that Joseph Fielding Smith was probably one of the most proudly scientifically illiterate douchebags to blat and bleat latterday prophetic nonsense. He couldn't even come up with his own creationist hokum but had to steal it from the Seventh Day Adventists. An entitled product of the Mormon aristocracy and an embarrassment as a 20th century American. And of course he was the Godfatherinlaw to that Moron Doctrine theobully Bruce. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
that Moron Doctrine theobully Bruce.

Theobully Bruce........ :lol: LOVE IT!

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Science is not reliable because it provides certainty. It is reliable because it provides us with the best answers we have at present. And it is reliability we need, not certainty. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to certainty. Carlo Rovelli


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:51 am 
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Mittens wrote:
Duane S Crowther in his book Life Everlasting page 151

Teaches standard Mormon belief when he says that “good” spirits return to the earth and converse with Mormons to

1. Give counsel
2. Give confort
3. Obtain and give information
4. Serve as guardian angels
5. Prepare others for death
6. Summon mortals into the spirit world
7. Escort the dying through the veil of death

Deuteronomy 18
9 “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.

15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.


Well, the early Christians must not have interpreted those verses from Deuteronomy the same way you do, because they believed that good spirits can return to Earth at times to do the same things that Crowther talks about. For example, Justin Martyr stated that some dreams are sent to us by spirits. Numerous Christians through the ages have given accounts of having been visited by deceased relatives and others.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:49 am 
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mikegriffith1 wrote:
Mittens wrote:
Duane S Crowther in his book Life Everlasting page 151

Teaches standard Mormon belief when he says that “good” spirits return to the earth and converse with Mormons to

1. Give counsel
2. Give confort
3. Obtain and give information
4. Serve as guardian angels
5. Prepare others for death
6. Summon mortals into the spirit world
7. Escort the dying through the veil of death

Deuteronomy 18
9 “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.

15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.


Well, the early Christians must not have interpreted those verses from Deuteronomy the same way you do, because they believed that good spirits can return to Earth at times to do the same things that Crowther talks about. For example, Justin Martyr stated that some dreams are sent to us by spirits. Numerous Christians through the ages have given accounts of having been visited by deceased relatives and others.


Yep, Deuteronomy explicitly condemns necromancy--you know, what Mormons do when they're baptizing the dead, Joseph Smith talking to Moroni, Smith's spirit guardians he used in money digging, magic talismans and daggers. Quite the trickster, no wonder he kept getting in trouble with the law. Some Christians suspect Smith was a secret Satanist. You can see why. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Christians are too. "Holy Ghosts"? Sounds pretty spooky and occulty to me. :lol: Then there's that ritual cannibalism thing...yikes! :eek:

Ok, please take it from the beginning, but this time remember you’re Skooby doo.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons are into the OCCULT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Yep, Deuteronomy explicitly condemns necromancy--you know, what Mormons do when they're baptizing the dead, Joseph Smith talking to Moroni, Smith's spirit guardians he used in money digging, magic talismans and daggers. Quite the trickster, no wonder he kept getting in trouble with the law. Some Christians suspect Smith was a secret Satanist. You can see why. :wink:


I know you're just making a joke, but this actually gets at some big complexities in the Old Testament - particularly around the time of Lehi. If you take the Documentary Hypothesis seriously, then the Deuteronomist tradition really arises around the time of Josiah (with many scholars seeing Deuteronomy being written at that time). The Deuteronomist tradition is thus trying to repress or at least reframe elements of Jewish worship. Especially elements often tied to the northern Kingdom. A lot of practices that seems completely accepted as mainstream in parts of the text (Moses' serpent, speaking with the dead, worship outside of the Jewish temple especially in "high places", etc.) get condemned. Even the northern Israel temples, which most scholars see as pretty much the same as Solomon's, get rebranded as Jeroboam's sin. Whereas I think the standard view today is that the two calves have a function more akin to the cherobim on the Ark of the Covenant.

The reason to raise this is that there's pretty strong reasons to think the elements of the OT that tend to downplay or condemn spiritualism or even prophecy independent from the priestly line are really elements of the Deuteronomist or Priestly traditions revising Judaism - largely in the period from Lehi on up to probably around 300 BC after the period of exile is well over.

Now I think it's fair to note that not all of these elements are found in the Book of Mormon. And the more interesting elements we do find such as Enochian literature tend to be late Hellenistic even if elements might go back to pre-exilic times. The traditional problem of course is that what survives is what was retained by the D & P traditions when the canon was formed. Even the other traditions outside of the Canon, such as Enochian texts, are themselves late even if perhaps making use of earlier traditions. What's interesting are that any element of pre-exilic Israel religion that didn't meet the theological standards of D & P survived. So Moses' serpent is remarkable in that sense, for instance.

Where most of the parallels to Joseph Smith's so-called "occult" elements are found is first century syncretic practices. So you have pretty ubiquitous amulets, scrolls and so forth in the magic tradition that have similar mystic words and often have Jewish figures in them. The difference between say a gnostic text with mystic mantras and a pagan text are minor if there are differences at all. Most of these are all seen through a broadly platonic and quasi-Egyptian framework. What's interesting of course is that this survived to Joseph Smith's time. (Largely thanks to the Islamic sacking of Constantinople which brought refugees and texts to the west that had been lost)

Now I am careful. I don't think this justifies these more hermetic, occult, or magical traditions. Far from it. Just that if we're going to be consistent we should acknowledge most of this was around in the period of Christ and the centuries thereafter. Indeed scholars have long noted the use of magical traditions by Jesus such as the mud on the eyes and so forth. While Morton Smith isn't someone I'd appeal to uncritically, I do think his Jesus the Magician does a good job noting the parallels.


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