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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:36 am 
First Presidency
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Plenty of arrogance to go around.

Fencesitter, isn’t it obvious that when LittleNipper - or you, I or anyone - writes, it is coming from us individually as our opinion? Do you really need someone to preface every post with, “In my opinion...”? Do you preface all your posts that way, or do you put forth your assertions, trusting it’s understood as your opinion?

It’s more logical to point out specifically why you disagree with someone rather than say, “you act as if what you say is God’s word!”

by the way, I’ve been listening to Jordan Peterson’s bible series and it’s really fascinating. He presents it kind of as if he stumbled across the bible as an anthropologist, but also notes the collective unconscious symbolism which Carl Jung brought light to. I think atheists as well as theists would appreciate it.
https://youtu.be/f-wWBGo6a2w


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:00 am 
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Amore wrote:
Plenty of arrogance to go around.

Fencesitter, isn’t it obvious that when LittleNipper - or you, I or anyone - writes, it is coming from us individually as our opinion? Do you really need someone to preface every post with, “In my opinion...”? Do you preface all your posts that way, or do you put forth your assertions, trusting it’s understood as your opinion?

No it is not obvious when LN says it. In fact quite the opposite. I believe if you asked him if there were any errors in the Bible, he would say no. Ask him if he thinks the interpretation of the Bible is a matter of opinions.

When one claims the Bible as infallible, one is also claiming to interpret the Bible for other people. So if the Bible says there was a global flood in which Noah placed all the living animals on a boat for 40 days, then science must be wrong. If the Bible claims that Adam and Eve were real people and the 1st humans on this earth some 6000 years ago, then science must be wrong. The dangerous parts of these types of claims, is that they spill out into our public education system. That somehow we must give equal time in our schools to nonsense like creationism or intelligent design. These are blatant efforts to paint religious dogma as if it were science. If someone want to teach those things in church, fine, but keep it out of our public schools.

He is not stating these as maters of opinions and in fact in his last post tried poorly to tell me that science had no say in these claims, an absurd claim. Of course sconce has something to say about a global flood. Now if he wants to admit that there may be other ways to interpret the Bible and that other opinions may have some validity as to those claims, I would be glad to move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Let's take this a little further, this matter of opinions vs fact and the need to point them out.

Many of us live in a culture in the western hemisphere where the existence of God is considered a fact, not an opinion. One may argue who this God is or what He specifically is saying or wants us to do, but the underlying assumptions in those arguments, like this one here, is that there is just one God, the Christian one and that is a fact that is not in dispute, when in reality it is just an opinion.

So if I were to point out to you that your view of God is just an opinion not a fact, are you okay with that? Maybe, or maybe not, but I assure you that you will never get LN to admit that it is only his opinion that the Christian God exists.

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Sean Carroll


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:11 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
When you attack the Bible you attack the supernatural.

Not sure if this is meant as a concession, or a defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:07 pm 
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FenceSitter,

You wrote, “The dangerous parts of these types of claims, is that they spill out into our public education system. That somehow we must give equal time in our schools to nonsense like creationism or intelligent design. These are blatant efforts to paint religious dogma as if it were science. If someone want to teach those things in church, fine, but keep it out of our public schools.”

I’ve been to probably over 100 public classrooms during school and have never heard what you claim above. Why lie about this? You have a strong enough point without lying. The bible isn’t a history or science book - it’s a spiritual book of parables - not meant for literal interpretation. That makes sense. But when you start going on about things that go contrary to reality - it doesn’t help your credibility. Truth is a much stronger foundation.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Let's take this a little further, this matter of opinions vs fact and the need to point them out.

Many of us live in a culture in the western hemisphere where the existence of God is considered a fact, not an opinion. One may argue who this God is or what He specifically is saying or wants us to do, but the underlying assumptions in those arguments, like this one here, is that there is just one God, the Christian one and that is a fact that is not in dispute, when in reality it is just an opinion.

So if I were to point out to you that your view of God is just an opinion not a fact, are you okay with that? Maybe, or maybe not, but I assure you that you will never get LN to admit that it is only his opinion that the Christian God exists.

Yes, I’m ok with that, but that won’t necessarily stop me from trying to persuade others to interpret God as I do, & I imagine it’s similar with you. Do you realize all you perceive is subjective, not objective & would you be ok with someone pointing that out to you? Surprisingly, few realize their subjectivity.

When it comes to God (aka “love”) there are no facts. It’s all personal. This is spelled out in scripture but not only do atheists not consider personal definitions of God, but many theists don’t either. “The kingdom of God is within you.” God is I AM THAT I AM - conscious-based.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Amore wrote:
FenceSitter,

You wrote, “The dangerous parts of these types of claims, is that they spill out into our public education system. That somehow we must give equal time in our schools to nonsense like creationism or intelligent design. These are blatant efforts to paint religious dogma as if it were science. If someone want to teach those things in church, fine, but keep it out of our public schools.”

I’ve been to probably over 100 public classrooms during school and have never heard what you claim above. Why lie about this? You have a strong enough point without lying. The bible isn’t a history or science book - it’s a spiritual book of parables - not meant for literal interpretation. That makes sense. But when you start going on about things that go contrary to reality - it doesn’t help your credibility. Truth is a much stronger foundation.

It's interesting to see you jump right into "Why lie about this?" and "I have been to a hundred schools" rather than ask me to verify my claim. It speaks volumes about your character and naïveté. A simple Google search would have led you see that is exactly what is going on in states like Texas & Louisiana, and is supported through public funding of private schools (something else I am against) in quite a few other states. See here. Are you actually trying to extrapolate what is happening through out the nation in public schools based on having visited just a hundred? There are over a hundred thousand elementary and secondary schools in the US.

You have also moved from asking about what I said to LN to presenting your own beliefs regarding the Bible. I am not sure at this point if you are able to follow a discussion you started.

Let's recap to help you a bit.

You challenged what I said to LN by claiming that it was not necessary to tell him he was only expressing his opinion. That is where our conversation started. I responded to that challenge by pointing out why I thought it was necessary to explain that to LN. My entire response was showing why I thought it necessary to respond to him. You will notice that nothing in my first response was directed at you, at all. It was all in response to LN.

The your respond in your next post by accusing me of lying and stating you know I am lying because you have been in some schools and have never seen what I said was happening. And then finish off by expressing your own beliefs in the Bible and how it is to be used, as if that had something to do with what I was saying about LN.

Ironically enough in your next post you actually say almost exactly the same thing to me that you challenged me for saying to LN.

Amore wrote:
Do you realize all you perceive is subjective, not objective & would you be ok with someone pointing that out to you? Surprisingly, few realize their subjectivity.

Make up your mind.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Last edited by Fence Sitter on Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Amore wrote:
Yes, I’m ok with that, but that won’t necessarily stop me from trying to persuade others to interpret God as I do, & I imagine it’s similar with you. Do you realize all you perceive is subjective, not objective & would you be ok with someone pointing that out to you? Surprisingly, few realize their subjectivity.

When it comes to God (aka “love”) there are no facts. It’s all personal. This is spelled out in scripture but not only do atheists not consider personal definitions of God, but many theists don’t either. “The kingdom of God is within you.” God is I AM THAT I AM - conscious-based.

I have no problems with people expressing their subjective beliefs in God.

The problems start when they take that subjective belief and try and tell others how they should act, like for example, telling gay people they can't get married. That when subjective belief becomes objective reality.

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Sean Carroll


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:31 pm 
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FenceSitter,

What you wrote implied Creationism being taught in all public schools, which is factually incorrect. You helped me realize there are some relatively few that are pushing to teach Creationism in school, & we probably agree that school is not the place for that.

It’s ironic how you hate anyone telling you what to believe or do, yet you’re telling people they must accept marriage based on sexual distortions that statistically prove to be harmful. Herd mentality - got you too.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Amore wrote:
FenceSitter,

What you wrote implied Creationism being taught in all public schools, which is factually incorrect. You helped me realize there are some relatively few that are pushing to teach Creationism in school, & we probably agree that school is not the place for that.

It’s ironic how you hate anyone telling you what to believe or do, yet you’re telling people they must accept marriage based on sexual distortions that statistically prove to be harmful. Herd mentality - got you too.

Here is exactly what I wrote regarding creationism in public schools.

Quote:
he dangerous parts of these types of claims, is that they spill out into our public education system. That somehow we must give equal time in our schools to nonsense like creationism or intelligent design. These are blatant efforts to paint religious dogma as if it were science. If someone want to teach those things in church, fine, but keep it out of our public schools.

No where does that imply or could be read as "all public schools."

You seem to have problems with reading comprehension, jumping to unsupported conclusions and then accusing people of herd mentality that disagree with you.

I will also note no retraction on your part for calling me a liar when I showed you to be wrong.

It is obvious you have no idea how to follow a train of thought or create a cogent argument.

We're done.

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Sean Carroll


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 Post subject: Re: Museum of the Bible opening
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:23 pm 
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FenceSitter,

You sure have been displaying a lot of irony - or is it hypocrisy- first about hating anyone telling you what to believe then showing intollerance to people who don’t believe as you do.

Then you put me down and demand an apology for you claiming public schools teach Creationism. You wrote, “That somehow we must give equal time in our schools to nonsense like creationism or intelligent design.” “Our schools” include all our public schools. If you wrote, “some of our public schools” that wouldn’t have been so deceptive. But I am sorry I accused you of lying even though what you wrote was deceptive.


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