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 Post subject: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:46 am 
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There are some verses in the LDS scripture that seems to advocate a large degree of sameness regarding earthly possessions.

Examples:

Moses 7:18. And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

4 Nephi 1:3. And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

D&C 42:30. And behold, thou wilt remember the poor, and consecrate of thy properties for their support that which thou hast to impart unto them, with a covenant and a deed which cannot be broken.

I disagree with this seemlingly advocacy of wealth sameness in these verses. That is a problem for me. I don´t want to change my liking and approval of capitalism. My faith would certainly be stronger if the scripture did not have such verses.

How can I relate to this in a way that increases my faith in and support of the doctrine and the LDS Church?

Also: If I do not support persons that are poorer than me in material things, what blessing do I miss, and is there a punishment for me?


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:54 am 
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If you try going to church I am sure you will find capitalism recognized and advocated without questions or reservations.

I am unsure why you choose to hear equality of wealth in those verses. That idea is not there. Instead there is an advocacy of making effort to eliminate poverty. If you are completely against helping people who are poor you will have to skip over a number of scriptures.

Perhaps you can find special blinders to help with that.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:58 am 
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four seasons wrote:
If I do not support persons that are poorer than me in material things, what blessing do I miss, and is there a punishment for me?

If you expect to get every time you give you are going to loose you Kadydid.Orlie did.

Or on the other hand a person could help somebody in order to help somebody.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:14 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
If you expect to get every time you give you are going to loose you Kadydid.Orlie did.

What's a "Kadydid.Orlie did?"

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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
If you expect to get every time you give you are going to loose you Kadydid.Orlie did.

What's a "Kadydid.Orlie did?"

Tettigoniidae - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tettigoniidae
Insects in the family Tettigoniidae are commonly called bush crickets (in the UK), katydids (in the USA), or long-horned grasshoppers (mostly obsolete). More than 6,400 species are known. Part of the suborder Ensifera, Tettigoniidae is the only family in the superfamily Tettigonioidea.
‎Description and lifecycle · ‎Distribution · ‎Ecology · ‎Reproductive behavior

,, the phrase is from a story on a 78 recording from my childhood. Perhaps iI shouldn't think the phrase recognizable. Orlie is a young boy who finds a cricket and gives it to a farm critter(details way outside my recollection) who in turn gives the young boy something in return which he gives to another critter repeating the pattern till he gives a bull frog his catydid. The bull frog swallows it and when asked what he is giving in return says "I ain't giving nothing at all".The moral of the story being, If you expect to get every time you give you will loose your katydid , Orlie did.

And as an aside thinking of Ayn Rand,
Oh and if money was an evil thing it would not be a good to give some to somebody else.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:02 pm 
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four seasons wrote:
There are some verses in the LDS scripture that seems to advocate a large degree of sameness regarding earthly possessions.

Examples:
Moses 7:18. And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

4 Nephi 1:3. And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

D&C 42:30. And behold, thou wilt remember the poor, and consecrate of thy properties for their support that which thou hast to impart unto them, with a covenant and a deed which cannot be broken.

I disagree with this seemlingly advocacy of wealth sameness in these verses. That is a problem for me. I don´t want to change my liking and approval of capitalism. My faith would certainly be stronger if the scripture did not have such verses.

How can I relate to this in a way that increases my faith in and support of the doctrine and the LDS Church?
Also: If I do not support persons that are poorer than me in material things, what blessing do I miss, and is there a punishment for me?


Why place this idea as being from LDS belief and scripture?
It comes from the Bible too so is part of Christianity in general. The early Christians followed this ideology.

Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

2 Corinthians 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

Matthew 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:58 am 
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Sorry for not answering eariler.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:39 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
I am unsure why you choose to hear equality of wealth in those verses. That idea is not there. Instead there is an advocacy of making effort to eliminate poverty.


Disregarding your snubs, I would argue that there are equality of wealth in those verses.

"And the Lord called his people Zion, because ... there was no poor among them." This means that a population can not be called Zion unless there are no poor among them; that is, a population can not be choosen by God to be his people unless there are no poor among them.

"And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift." A person can not be free of bonds, "made free", unless a population has all things in common among them. And if they have all things in common, they will partake of "the" heavenly gift. Which heavenly gift is that?
I strongly disagree that a person can not be free in a society where all things are not in common among them and where there are no rich and poor.

There could be no rich or poor in a population without any taxation. If all love each other to a certain degree, I assume they would share their wealth with each other on a volontary basis.

Are there poor people among the LDS church members? Salt Lake City (Utah) has no poor in one sense, in that poor people are offered a place to live and meals, according to a TV piece that I watched. The journalist marvelled at the uniquely generous help to those in need. The LDS church was a big part of the reason that no other city or state had so much help for those in need.
But if there are poor among the LDS members, there is a problem: then LDS can not be called Zion, which it actually is called. That is an inconsistency.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:56 am 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Why place this idea as being from LDS belief and scripture?
It comes from the Bible too so is part of Christianity in general. The early Christians followed this ideology.

I placed the idea as being only from LDS belief and scripture because at the time of me writing it I did not recall the verses in the Bible that you cite. I suppose I did not recall the verses in the Bible partly because I felt vexation about some verses in 2 Nephi that I found to be similar to the ones I quoted here. Thank you for making the effort of reminding me of these Bible verses.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:49 am 
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four seasons wrote:
I suppose I did not recall the verses in the Bible partly because I felt vexation about some verses in 2 Nephi that I found to be similar to the ones I quoted here. Thank you for making the effort of reminding me of these Bible verses.

So, how will your belief in Mormonism change, if at all, now that you're aware of those Bible verses?

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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:35 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
So, how will your belief in Mormonism change, if at all, now that you're aware of those Bible verses?


Sorry for late answer. I am starting to see a pattern here regarding late answers from me.

So I think that I have a hypothesis which is "The Book of Mormon is the word of God".

If the thing about wealth sameness was only in the Book of Mormon, than that would have been an argument for thinking that the hypothesis is false. Why? It must be that I regard the Bible as more legitimate as a source of God when comparing the two books.


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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Don't worry, the Mormons won't shun you for being a capitalist. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Don't worry, the Mormons won't shun you for being a capitalist. :lol:

only for being a leftist - even they don't know the meaning of that word (and of "theory", "apology" or "gospel" ...)

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 Post subject: Re: I disagree about the verses on wealth sameness
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:16 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Don't worry, the Mormons won't shun you for being a capitalist. :lol:


Most Mormons won't, I'm sure.


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