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 Post subject: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:20 pm 
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So says Kate Kelly, in a NBC interview regarding the high profile excommunication of James Hamula.

""Excommunication is actually a very violent procedure. Within faith tradition, it's a spiritual death, which to Mormons is worse than a physical death," Kelly said.

"It also means that you don't get to be with your family in the eternity," she said. "They essentially kicked me out of heaven."...

Kelly appealed her excommunication, but was denied and said she would not consider being rebaptized because she could not repent for her beliefs.

"I never consider getting rebaptized because that would mean being part of an institution where I would couldn't tell the truth or be my authentic self," she said."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/ex ... ry-n791351


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:40 pm 
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It can be devastating to a believer who finds themselves locked out of everything they hold dear.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:35 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
It can be devastating to a believer who finds themselves locked out of everything they hold dear.

Then maybe the "believer" should wise up and realize that the whole thing is a lie and that they are better off out of the religion of SCAM!


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:13 am 
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Servant wrote:
tapirrider wrote:
It can be devastating to a believer who finds themselves locked out of everything they hold dear.

Then maybe the "believer" should wise up and realize that the whole thing is a lie and that they are better off out of the religion of SCAM!

That only happens later, sometimes much later - after the initial shock and disbelief wears off.

Losing the religion one was so ingrained with from birth on is the same as losing a family member - that's how intertwined it is into a member's psyche.

To part ways most ex-Mormons go through the stages of grief of loss. All five of them. It can take weeks, months, or years to work through that. It doesn't happen overnight.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:39 pm 
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AmyJo wrote:
So says Kate Kelly, in a NBC interview regarding the high profile excommunication of James Hamula.

""Excommunication is actually a very violent procedure. Within faith tradition, it's a spiritual death, which to Mormons is worse than a physical death," Kelly said.

"It also means that you don't get to be with your family in the eternity," she said. "They essentially kicked me out of heaven."...

Kelly appealed her excommunication, but was denied and said she would not consider being rebaptized because she could not repent for her beliefs.

"I never consider getting rebaptized because that would mean being part of an institution where I would couldn't tell the truth or be my authentic self," she said."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/ex ... ry-n791351


Seems like an accurate description to me.
Is she saying that excommunication isn't warranted for contrary belief?

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:16 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
AmyJo wrote:
So says Kate Kelly, in a NBC interview regarding the high profile excommunication of James Hamula.

""Excommunication is actually a very violent procedure. Within faith tradition, it's a spiritual death, which to Mormons is worse than a physical death," Kelly said.

"It also means that you don't get to be with your family in the eternity," she said. "They essentially kicked me out of heaven."...

Kelly appealed her excommunication, but was denied and said she would not consider being rebaptized because she could not repent for her beliefs.

"I never consider getting rebaptized because that would mean being part of an institution where I would couldn't tell the truth or be my authentic self," she said."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/ex ... ry-n791351


Seems like an accurate description to me.
Is she saying that excommunication isn't warranted for contrary belief?


I think she knew she was going to be excommunicated for her contrary beliefs, but chose to go through that to its bitter end.

If it were me, I'd have resigned before reaching that point. In fact I did resign. There is no room in the cult for intellectuals, feminists, or theologians. Its teachings are based on the farcical heretical Joseph Smith religion. Not authentic. Not really relevant for the times we live in. By resigning is choosing not to live in denial pretending things are fine and dandy, when they're anything but.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Was James Hamula president of the D.C. South Mission?

Yes he was. According to Wikipedia. Does anyone know why?

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Was James Hamula president of the D.C. South Mission?

Yes he was. According to Wikipedia. Does anyone know why?

We knew hamula when he was dc south mission prez 94-97- his family was in the burke virginia ward because the mission home is in its boundaries. dc south covers northern virginia south and west to the blue rige mountains. as a nevrermo he was always trying to figure out why i never converted-that's another story. hamula then was only 39 and was a tall smooth talking " i am above the fray superiority complex kinda guy".

never seemed ruffled, did not seem to have a roving eye for other women or men, but his physical appearance was slicked back going gray peppered black hair, $900 suits and matching ties and shined shoes- kinda "gay" look imho . his wife joyce was tall blonde but motherly looking - raising kids- there were a couiple of girls and twin young boys those days as i recall. he seemed all in for the church and was definitely looking to climb the GA ladder.

when the excomm was announced i personal messaged him and he replied confirming his belief and love for the church, the brethern and his family and thanked me for the supporting email.

my best rumor is that while he was area president in the pacific there were some shady land deals in NZ by the church and he was either part of it or uncovered some embarrassing info on apostles or GA's and the die was cast. next best rumor is he got into a sexual situation and was nabbed.

k


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:36 pm 
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AmyJo wrote:
So says Kate Kelly, in a NBC interview regarding the high profile excommunication of James Hamula: "Excommunication is actually a very violent procedure. Within faith tradition, it's a spiritual death, which to Mormons is worse than a physical death," Kelly said. "It also means that you don't get to be with your family in the eternity," she said. "They essentially kicked me out of heaven."... Kelly appealed her excommunication, but was denied and said she would not consider being rebaptized because she could not repent for her beliefs.

I've never understood people like Kate Kelly. She had complete control over the entire situation and could have easily avoided excommunication simply by repentance. Excommunication is a form of spiritual death, and it's supposed to be.

Kelly wants women to have the priesthood. So why did she go public? She was warned and warned again. If she wanted to press the issue, all she had to do was take it up with God. Instead, she wanted to go through the authorities of the Church, and they don't have the authority to give her what she wants, right? They have the keys to bind on Earth and in Heaven, but they have zero authority to grant women the priesthood. Thus, she should have gone to the one person who could have granted it, and that's God.

At some point, they gave her the choice to stay in the church or to leave. It was the same choice our brother Lucifer and his angels were given. They refused and were cast out, and she made the same decision for herself. If only people could understand that all they have to do is act in their own best interest and all would be well.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:18 pm 
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SonOfZeus wrote:
AmyJo wrote:
So says Kate Kelly, in a NBC interview regarding the high profile excommunication of James Hamula: "Excommunication is actually a very violent procedure. Within faith tradition, it's a spiritual death, which to Mormons is worse than a physical death," Kelly said. "It also means that you don't get to be with your family in the eternity," she said. "They essentially kicked me out of heaven."... Kelly appealed her excommunication, but was denied and said she would not consider being rebaptized because she could not repent for her beliefs.

I've never understood people like Kate Kelly. She had complete control over the entire situation and could have easily avoided excommunication simply by repentance. Excommunication is a form of spiritual death, and it's supposed to be.

Kelly wants women to have the priesthood. So why did she go public? She was warned and warned again. If she wanted to press the issue, all she had to do was take it up with God. Instead, she wanted to go through the authorities of the Church, and they don't have the authority to give her what she wants, right? They have the keys to bind on Earth and in Heaven, but they have zero authority to grant women the priesthood. Thus, she should have gone to the one person who could have granted it, and that's God.

At some point, they gave her the choice to stay in the church or to leave. It was the same choice our brother Lucifer and his angels were given. They refused and were cast out, and she made the same decision for herself. If only people could understand that all they have to do is act in their own best interest and all would be well.


You're right in a way. If people were like sheep and just went along to get along, all would be well. In Mormonism that means drinking the Kool-Aid without complaining.

In Jonestown it cost everyone their lives drinking the Kool-Aid.

At some point people will either wake up or continue living a lie subject to blind authority.

People like Kate Kelly live on the fence. She was too intelligent not to question the status quo. She wasn't intelligent enough to understand that Mormonism does not have a monopoly on truth or her salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:32 am 
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Excommunication is entirely of men - not of God. It happens more based on leadership roulette. One of the most mature, loving and intelligent people I know was excommunicated for forinication while my mom who committed adultery had to just skip sacrament a few times. My friend happened to have gotten the Stake President’s daughter pregnant, thus the most extreme social religious punishment was inflicted.

However, how I’ve seen my friend develop, the excommunication served to first hurt like hell, but then he kind of awoke to more than he would’ve without it. So in a way, the excommunication inspired spiritual birth for him. He advanced so much in healing that despite the major shunning and pain he suffered from his ward, when his dad got old and needed help, he took him to church each Sunday, despite having been excommunicated.

Jesus never excommunicated but was excommunicated to the max. Religious leaders may want you to think of it as spiritual death, but really it’s a group of people hypocritically saying, “That sin is unacceptable” while they have similar sins.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:12 pm 
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It is still very difficult to get the history of the Church at Church. If you go to the Church website and are willing to put in the time, most of it is there now. It is a recent development. If you're still willing to be a TBM, so be it.

Back in the day, however, the only place in the world where you could not find Mormon history was in the Church itself. This deeply ironic circumstance led me to conclude for the last several decades that the ultimate sacrament or ordinance in the church is, indeed, excommunication. It is the circumstance of merely suffering for the sake of honesty and truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Amore wrote:
Excommunication is entirely of men - not of God. It happens more based on leadership roulette. One of the most mature, loving and intelligent people I know was excommunicated for forinication while my mom who committed adultery had to just skip sacrament a few times. My friend happened to have gotten the Stake President’s daughter pregnant, thus the most extreme social religious punishment was inflicted.

However, how I’ve seen my friend develop, the excommunication served to first hurt like hell, but then he kind of awoke to more than he would’ve without it. So in a way, the excommunication inspired spiritual birth for him. He advanced so much in healing that despite the major shunning and pain he suffered from his ward, when his dad got old and needed help, he took him to church each Sunday, despite having been excommunicated.

Jesus never excommunicated but was excommunicated to the max. Religious leaders may want you to think of it as spiritual death, but really it’s a group of people hypocritically saying, “That sin is unacceptable” while they have similar sins.



Very well said


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:40 pm 
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AmyJo wrote:
"It also means that you don't get to be with your family in the eternity," she said. "They essentially kicked me out of heaven."...


What a poor, picked upon victim, right? She has no one to blame but herself. She chose to make trouble over a topic that shouldn't even be discussed to begin with. I mean, really? Women holding the priesthood? It's a good punchline, but not a reality. She knows that. Instead of staying quiet like a good member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would, she disrespected her leaders, the Church, and by extension all 16 million of us. She basically spat upon all aforementioned parties.

She chose to ignore warnings. She calculated and planned so that she'd besmirch the Church's good name. It's hard to feel sympathy for someone who has pulled so many stunts.

Also, she's making it seem as if the being "kicked out" is permanent. Not so! She can repent of her evil ways, her opposing Church leaders, and she can abandon the sin. Then, with the help of her priesthood leaders, she can enter the waters of re-baptism.

Perhaps, instead of playing the victim, she should literally get with the program. If she spends the rest of her life this way, she will get what she claims hurts her.

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:44 pm 
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2kings98 wrote:
It's hard to feel sympathy for someone who has pulled so many stunts.


:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:55 pm 
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Is it waters of re-baptism? Or re-waters of re-baptism? Or re-waters of re-baptism?

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:56 pm 
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tapirrider wrote:
2kings98 wrote:
It's hard to feel sympathy for someone who has pulled so many stunts.


:lol:

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:00 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Is it waters of re-baptism? Or re-waters of re-baptism? Or re-waters of re-baptism?

You said the second option twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:59 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Is it waters of re-baptism? Or re-waters of re-baptism? Or re-waters of re-baptism?

You said the second option twice.


Quite right. The second one should read "re-waters of baptism."

My style manuals don't seem to cover this.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication = Spiritual Death
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:08 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
It can be devastating to a believer who finds themselves locked out of everything they hold dear.
I can fully understand that a person may feel separated; however, real friends, and family that understands the spiritual aspect of Christianity will fully understand that if a person has been excommunicated due to differences in biblical interpretation that is a far cry from excommunication for shameful behavior. The Christian knows that the ultimate judge is Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is no earthly organization or group that can separate anyone from the LOVE of GOD by any edict. The only power excommunication has is to drive one to capitulate and if one prayerfully, biblically, and spiritually feels that he is doing the right thing then what others would have him do is negated. Martin Luther was eventually excommunicated from the Roman Catholic church by the pope ---- what value did it serve?


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