It is currently Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:36 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:48 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 9756
Location: Multiverse
LittleNipper wrote:
That is your belief concerning Biblical documentation that was collected a mere 30 years after the fact. I'd say that there were still enough witnesses around to either substantiate or cry foul. :ugeek:


We can look at Mormonism and see how much cultural noise and controversy can be generated in 30 years time. He had witnesses, too. :lol:

_________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--Martin Luther King, Jr.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:02 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 4286
Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
That is your belief concerning Biblical documentation that was collected a mere 30 years after the fact. I'd say that there were still enough witnesses around to either substantiate or cry foul. :ugeek:


We can look at Mormonism and see how much cultural noise and controversy can be generated in 30 years time. He had witnesses, too. :lol:


The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that while the Bible contains 66 books and the Book of Mormon has 15 Books both claiming to be written over thousands of years, the Bible has a historical transcription track record that extends over about the same length of time with additional books added in due course that collaborate. Whereas the ONLY historic connection between the the modern era and the Book of Mormon rests entirely on Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon does boast witnesses (though mostly Whitmers and Smiths); however, there is a total lack of historic collaborating transcriptions that were not entirely of Joseph Smith's own effort & accredidation. And there is the problem with the witnesses.

The common LDS assertion presently is that the original 3 witnesses did NOT touch or handle the alleged golden plates (and several of the later testimony of the witnesses establishes this also). Yet it is additionally apparent that the earlier accounts of the three witnesses (and some of the later ones) say the EXACT OPPOSITE: that they did indeed touch and handle the golden plates. The very same may also be said of the eight witnesses. While the finished signed statement was clear that the eight witnesses had “handled” the plates, it was also evident that this was not entirely accurate (from their own testimony). This should discredit their accounts and bring their validity into serious question.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:45 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:29 pm
Posts: 3467
Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
That is your belief concerning Biblical documentation that was collected a mere 30 years after the fact. I'd say that there were still enough witnesses around to either substantiate or cry foul. :ugeek:


We can look at Mormonism and see how much cultural noise and controversy can be generated in 30 years time. He had witnesses, too. :lol:


I am not inclined to see either side of the above observations as exclusively correct. I do find myself wonder about an aspect of this however.

It seems to me the most important community observations or misobservations believers made about Mormonism happened very very early and quickly. I first think of the witnesses to the book of Mormon. Other community visionary experiences might be considered but the key moments of myth creation happened very fast and very early.

If I compare this to the formation of Christian beliefs I notice that it is possible that the stories which are basic to Christian understanding could have formed either accurately or mistakenly very early. If one could document that the miracle stories including resurrection were in circulation and related by Peter within a year of Jesus death, you would have no demonstration that they were accurate.

I might also suspect that stories that took shape with what ever degree of accuracy within a few months of Jesus death could then be spread about for years in a community with relatively little change.

I think Nipper has a point that the stories were not bouncing about randomly but were shared in a community of people who placed high value on them. I think that context could allow some change but would have a strong conserving power.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:59 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:29 pm
Posts: 3467
LittleNipper wrote:
Clearly, one thief was never water baptized but was moved to understand and accept Christ by some anointing. :ugeek:


Nipper I like and think I understand that you are pointing to something concrete underlying the ritual of baptism.

Your way of saying it uses traditional words that seem to come from the Calvinist world view that people are unable to accept God without God drawing them to him. I may not always fit proper 5points in my mind but I do have some respect for that thought.

If I look back at this example I find myself noticing that it is possible for a reader to understand what was happening with the thief in different ways. Perhaps he was profoundly impressed by Jesus. Perhaps he was simply offended that the other thief was being a jerk and experienced a moment of compassion for Jesus.

In truth I think moment of compassion is the clearest explanation. I am not sure that the thief knew much about Jesus. He did recognize a lack of mercy in the other thief and perhaps saw that lack as some thing that got them both in trouble. Jesus sees that moment of compassion as sufficient opening for repentance and for mercy to find the thief.

I do not think compassion is a magic thing but I do believe it is much more to do with the holy spirit than does magic changes, swoons , shouting etc.

I think the Holy Spirit is with us in compassion and that combination can change the world.

Well it obviously is not a magic wand erasing the problems of the world. Suffering has continued but I know of no better medicine for healing hate than compassion.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:01 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 9756
Location: Multiverse
huckelberry wrote:
Well it obviously is not a magic wand erasing the problems of the world. Suffering has continued but I know of no better medicine for healing hate than compassion.

_________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--Martin Luther King, Jr.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:02 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 9756
Location: Multiverse
LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:

We can look at Mormonism and see how much cultural noise and controversy can be generated in 30 years time. He had witnesses, too. :lol:


The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that while the Bible contains 66 books and the Book of Mormon has 15 Books both claiming to be written over thousands of years, the Bible has a historical transcription track record that extends over about the same length of time with additional books added in due course that collaborate. Whereas the ONLY historic connection between the the modern era and the Book of Mormon rests entirely on Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon does boast witnesses (though mostly Whitmers and Smiths); however, there is a total lack of historic collaborating transcriptions that were not entirely of Joseph Smith's own effort & accredidation. And there is the problem with the witnesses.

The common LDS assertion presently is that the original 3 witnesses did NOT touch or handle the alleged golden plates (and several of the later testimony of the witnesses establishes this also). Yet it is additionally apparent that the earlier accounts of the three witnesses (and some of the later ones) say the EXACT OPPOSITE: that they did indeed touch and handle the golden plates. The very same may also be said of the eight witnesses. While the finished signed statement was clear that the eight witnesses had “handled” the plates, it was also evident that this was not entirely accurate (from their own testimony). This should discredit their accounts and bring their validity into serious question.


Thanks for a thoughtful post, Nipper. :wink:

_________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--Martin Luther King, Jr.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:00 am 
Prophet
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:49 pm
Posts: 856
LittleNipper wrote:
The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that ...
...that you believe in the former and doesn't believe in the next


LittleNipper wrote:
The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that while the Bible contains 66 books and the Book of Mormon has 15 books

what about qur'an, which has 114 surahs?
114 is more than 81 (66 + 15)
even the 87 meccan suras are more than that...

_________________
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:33 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:50 am
Posts: 9212
Location: Your mother's purse
So did I miss the post where Mittens explains why Jesus got baptized?

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:30 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 4286
subgenius wrote:
So did I miss the post where Mittens explains why Jesus got baptized?

Jesus set the example. He prayed to the Father and tells believers to pray to the Father. Jesus was baptized/immersed as an illustration, and tells believers to be immersed as a representation of what Jesus went through. Jesus established the Lord's Supper as a memorial of His sacrifice and asks believers to continue that memorial. Jesus is the Savior of whosoever will, but He is also the believer's example. :ugeek:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:55 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 4286
Choyo Chagas wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that ...
...that you believe in the former and doesn't believe in the next


LittleNipper wrote:
The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that while the Bible contains 66 books and the Book of Mormon has 15 books

what about qur'an, which has 114 surahs?
114 is more than 81 (66 + 15)
even the 87 meccan suras are more than that...


The Qur'an was written centuries after the New and Old Testaments. The Qur'an likely rests on Apocryphal books written hundreds of years after the book of Revelations and combined them with oral Biblical traditions. The Qur'an paints an entirely different picture of Jesus as only a prophet and not the Son of God nor deity in the flesh. Please see: https://probe.org/jesus-in-the-quran/
The Qur'an removes Salvation by God's grace and replaced it with WORKS.


Last edited by LittleNipper on Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:18 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 9756
Location: Multiverse
LittleNipper wrote:
The Qur'an removes Salvation by God's grace and replaced it with WORKS.


Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?

_________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--Martin Luther King, Jr.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:18 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 4286
Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
The Qur'an removes Salvation by God's grace and replaced it with WORKS.


Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?


Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.

Calvinism -Total depravity of man Arminianism - partial depravity. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles).

Calvinism - Unconditional election of the saints. Arminianism - conditional election. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ.

Calvinism - Limited atonement. Arminianism - Unlimited. This is the most controversial of the 5 points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism - Irresistible grace of God. Arminianism - individual can resist the grace of God. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism - Perseverance of the saints Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

Interestingly in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I hold to total depravity. Unlimited Atonement. Election based on God's foreknowledge (call that what you will). Resistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints (once save always saved).
In other words I believe without The Holy Spirit knocking at the door of one's heart a person will not seek GOD; God knew/knows exactly who will accept Christ's atonement --- this follows with what I feel the Bible means by PREDESTINED; God knocks at the door but doesn't beat it down (so one can certainly reject His pleading) ----- I believe Jonah represents the believer and the believer may most certainly be prodded to do GOD's will; and finally I believe in eternal security (once saved the individual is sealed). So I find that both views have some merit.

I hope this helps you. Don't believe what I say ---- read the Bible for yourself and ask for God's guidance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:45 pm 
Prophet
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:49 pm
Posts: 856
Maksutov wrote:
Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?
LittleNipper wrote:
Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.


please scale up the pointing system (your one, if i may ask)

is it your one, or a copypasted one?

is it between
0 to 10
0 to 100
0 to googol

who did set it to 5?

who have set the points to 5?


i (and maksutov) repeat:
"Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?"

yes/no without copypasted wikipedia, if i may ask

_________________
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:12 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 9756
Location: Multiverse
LittleNipper wrote:

Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.

Calvinism -Total depravity of man Arminianism - partial depravity. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles).

Calvinism - Unconditional election of the saints. Arminianism - conditional election. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ.

Calvinism - Limited atonement. Arminianism - Unlimited. This is the most controversial of the 5 points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism - Irresistible grace of God. Arminianism - individual can resist the grace of God. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism - Perseverance of the saints Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

Interestingly in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I hold to total depravity. Unlimited Atonement. Election based on God's foreknowledge (call that what you will). Resistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints (once save always saved).
In other words I believe without The Holy Spirit knocking at the door of one's heart a person will not seek GOD; God knew/knows exactly who will accept Christ's atonement --- this follows with what I feel the Bible means by PREDESTINED; God knocks at the door but doesn't beat it down (so one can certainly reject His pleading) ----- I believe Jonah represents the believer and the believer may most certainly be prodded to do GOD's will; and finally I believe in eternal security (once saved the individual is sealed). So I find that both views have some merit.

I hope this helps you. Don't believe what I say ---- read the Bible for yourself and ask for God's guidance.


So you're spread across more than one movement but leaning toward a blend of Calvinist, Arminian and allied views. Does Methodism work for you?

_________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--Martin Luther King, Jr.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:19 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 4286
Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:

Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.

Calvinism -Total depravity of man Arminianism - partial depravity. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles).

Calvinism - Unconditional election of the saints. Arminianism - conditional election. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ.

Calvinism - Limited atonement. Arminianism - Unlimited. This is the most controversial of the 5 points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism - Irresistible grace of God. Arminianism - individual can resist the grace of God. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism - Perseverance of the saints Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

Interestingly in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I hold to total depravity. Unlimited Atonement. Election based on God's foreknowledge (call that what you will). Resistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints (once save always saved).
In other words I believe without The Holy Spirit knocking at the door of one's heart a person will not seek GOD; God knew/knows exactly who will accept Christ's atonement --- this follows with what I feel the Bible means by PREDESTINED; God knocks at the door but doesn't beat it down (so one can certainly reject His pleading) ----- I believe Jonah represents the believer and the believer may most certainly be prodded to do GOD's will; and finally I believe in eternal security (once saved the individual is sealed). So I find that both views have some merit.

I hope this helps you. Don't believe what I say ---- read the Bible for yourself and ask for God's guidance.


So you're spread across more than one movement but leaning toward a blend of Calvinist, Arminian and allied views. Does Methodism work for you?
Old-time Methodism CERTAINLY, I like John & Charles Wesley and George Whitefield... But modern compromised Methodism, NO! I hold to 6 day Creationism, worldwide Flood, Jonah, Moses and a real Adversary/Serpent/Devil/Satan. However, I thoroughly enjoy Billy Graham (a Baptist).


Last edited by LittleNipper on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 9756
Location: Multiverse
LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:

So you're spread across more than one movement but leaning toward a blend of Calvinist, Arminian and allied views. Does Methodism work for you?
Old-time Methodism CERTAINLY, I like John & Charles Wesley and George Whitefield... But modern compromised Methodism, NO! I hold to 6 day Creationism, worldwide Flood, Jonah, Moses and a real Adversary/Serpent/Devil/Satan. However, to thoroughly enjoy Billy Graham (a Baptist)


Solid fundamentalist. Familiar with Billy Sunday?

What do you think about Francis Schaeffer? The father, not his son.

_________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--Martin Luther King, Jr.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:56 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 4286
Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:

Solid fundamentalist. Familiar with Billy Sunday?

What do you think about Francis Schaeffer? The father, not his son.
I saw Francis Schaeffer at Liberty --- a very deep thoughtful person. He didn't talk down at people. And yes, I have heard of Billy Sunday (though ordained Presbyterian, he practiced and I am a Nondenominational Fundamentalist). He also once played for the Philadelphia Phillies. :biggrin: (very fast runner)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:12 am 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:56 pm
Posts: 1452
"I may have some sympathy with your comments but I find it impossible not to think the reverse as well"-huckleberry

hucklebrerry-The Catholic church believes it helps people by allowing belief and surrender to be a community undertaking mediated by grace and sacraments. I think they have a point, I cannot imagine anything less simple and less possible than asking individuals to truly believe and totally surrender. Humans by themselves cannot do these things. You propose an impossible path to salvation.[/quote]

the process is simple but the execution is much much harder as you so correctly point out-often humans have to hit rock bottom in a moral sense before their spirits/hearts/minds can even fathom surrending to God totally and completely-but it does happen. others come to that point because they read or hear the gosple and comprehend the miracles of Jesus as signs of his messiahship and then "believe on him" in a act of unselfish surrender.
in a church setting eg RC persons have a set of principles and doctrines and sacramental processes to follow so they can judge for themselves whether they are good or bad, heaven or hell ready. But the RC setting does not often bring the person to a complete and total submission and belief on the LJC. neither does the Mormon setting-there is no altar call in the RC or Mormon settings, but such exists in bible based free churches or in revival settings which are designed to bring a person to a mental/soul state of surrender. And finally as Calvinist would perhaps proclaim, God chose Paul outside of Paul's acts/works and God chooses persons to be saved the same way-grace(God's unmerited favor/love) and only grace saves!

just sayin'
k


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:10 pm 
Nursery
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:05 pm
Posts: 16
Water baptism is required for salvation. We know that not only by modern prophets, but through the practice of baptism for the dead. If baptism weren't necessary, why build all these temples? Why have the restoration of the keys of the priesthood? Baptism is necessary for salvation (salvation being defined as Eternal Life) because the temple ordinance we call the endowments are necessary, and baptism is required to receive the endowments.

In the so-called Secret Gospel of Mark, an apocraphal work, a peculiar event is reported that lends credence to the existence of rites other than those mentioned in our Bible:

Quote:
And when they had gone out from the tomb, they went into the young man’s house; for he was rich. And after six days Jesus commissioned him; and in the evening the young man came to him, clothed only in linen cloth upon his naked body. And he remained with him that night; for Jesus was teaching him the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. And from there he went away and returned to the other bank of the Jordan.

This has led to some rather wild speculations among some non-LDS theologians, yet to latter-day saints it makes perfect sense. What we call “temple rites" were called the “mysteries of the Kingdom of God" among the ancient-day saints.

Thus it is that baptism is required for salvation of the living and the dead.

..


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group