Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

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_LittleNipper
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _LittleNipper »

Choyo Chagas wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that ...
...that you believe in the former and doesn't believe in the next


LittleNipper wrote:The major differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that while the Bible contains 66 books and the Book of Mormon has 15 books

what about qur'an, which has 114 surahs?
114 is more than 81 (66 + 15)
even the 87 meccan suras are more than that...


The Qur'an was written centuries after the New and Old Testaments. The Qur'an likely rests on Apocryphal books written hundreds of years after the book of Revelations and combined them with oral Biblical traditions. The Qur'an paints an entirely different picture of Jesus as only a prophet and not the Son of God nor deity in the flesh. Please see: https://probe.org/jesus-in-the-quran/
The Qur'an removes Salvation by God's grace and replaced it with WORKS.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Maksutov
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _Maksutov »

LittleNipper wrote:The Qur'an removes Salvation by God's grace and replaced it with WORKS.


Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_LittleNipper
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _LittleNipper »

Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:The Qur'an removes Salvation by God's grace and replaced it with WORKS.


Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?


Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.

Calvinism -Total depravity of man Arminianism - partial depravity. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles).

Calvinism - Unconditional election of the saints. Arminianism - conditional election. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ.

Calvinism - Limited atonement. Arminianism - Unlimited. This is the most controversial of the 5 points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism - Irresistible grace of God. Arminianism - individual can resist the grace of God. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism - Perseverance of the saints Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

Interestingly in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I hold to total depravity. Unlimited Atonement. Election based on God's foreknowledge (call that what you will). Resistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints (once save always saved).
In other words I believe without The Holy Spirit knocking at the door of one's heart a person will not seek GOD; God knew/knows exactly who will accept Christ's atonement --- this follows with what I feel the Bible means by PREDESTINED; God knocks at the door but doesn't beat it down (so one can certainly reject His pleading) ----- I believe Jonah represents the believer and the believer may most certainly be prodded to do GOD's will; and finally I believe in eternal security (once saved the individual is sealed). So I find that both views have some merit.

I hope this helps you. Don't believe what I say ---- read the Bible for yourself and ask for God's guidance.
_Choyo Chagas
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _Choyo Chagas »

Maksutov wrote:Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?
LittleNipper wrote:Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.


please scale up the pointing system (your one, if i may ask)

is it your one, or a copypasted one?

is it between
0 to 10
0 to 100
0 to googol

who did set it to 5?

who have set the points to 5?


i (and maksutov) repeat:
"Are you in the Calvinist tradition, Nipper?"

yes/no without copypasted wikipedia, if i may ask
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
_Maksutov
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _Maksutov »

LittleNipper wrote:
Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.

Calvinism -Total depravity of man Arminianism - partial depravity. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles).

Calvinism - Unconditional election of the saints. Arminianism - conditional election. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ.

Calvinism - Limited atonement. Arminianism - Unlimited. This is the most controversial of the 5 points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism - Irresistible grace of God. Arminianism - individual can resist the grace of God. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism - Perseverance of the saints Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

Interestingly in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I hold to total depravity. Unlimited Atonement. Election based on God's foreknowledge (call that what you will). Resistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints (once save always saved).
In other words I believe without The Holy Spirit knocking at the door of one's heart a person will not seek GOD; God knew/knows exactly who will accept Christ's atonement --- this follows with what I feel the Bible means by PREDESTINED; God knocks at the door but doesn't beat it down (so one can certainly reject His pleading) ----- I believe Jonah represents the believer and the believer may most certainly be prodded to do GOD's will; and finally I believe in eternal security (once saved the individual is sealed). So I find that both views have some merit.

I hope this helps you. Don't believe what I say ---- read the Bible for yourself and ask for God's guidance.


So you're spread across more than one movement but leaning toward a blend of Calvinist, Arminian and allied views. Does Methodism work for you?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_LittleNipper
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _LittleNipper »

Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Calvinism TULIP and Arminianism are 2 systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems have 5 points.

Calvinism -Total depravity of man Arminianism - partial depravity. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles).

Calvinism - Unconditional election of the saints. Arminianism - conditional election. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ.

Calvinism - Limited atonement. Arminianism - Unlimited. This is the most controversial of the 5 points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism - Irresistible grace of God. Arminianism - individual can resist the grace of God. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism - Perseverance of the saints Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

Interestingly in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I hold to total depravity. Unlimited Atonement. Election based on God's foreknowledge (call that what you will). Resistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints (once save always saved).
In other words I believe without The Holy Spirit knocking at the door of one's heart a person will not seek GOD; God knew/knows exactly who will accept Christ's atonement --- this follows with what I feel the Bible means by PREDESTINED; God knocks at the door but doesn't beat it down (so one can certainly reject His pleading) ----- I believe Jonah represents the believer and the believer may most certainly be prodded to do GOD's will; and finally I believe in eternal security (once saved the individual is sealed). So I find that both views have some merit.

I hope this helps you. Don't believe what I say ---- read the Bible for yourself and ask for God's guidance.


So you're spread across more than one movement but leaning toward a blend of Calvinist, Arminian and allied views. Does Methodism work for you?
Old-time Methodism CERTAINLY, I like John & Charles Wesley and George Whitefield... But modern compromised Methodism, NO! I hold to 6 day Creationism, worldwide Flood, Jonah, Moses and a real Adversary/Serpent/Devil/Satan. However, I thoroughly enjoy Billy Graham (a Baptist).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Maksutov
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _Maksutov »

LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
So you're spread across more than one movement but leaning toward a blend of Calvinist, Arminian and allied views. Does Methodism work for you?
Old-time Methodism CERTAINLY, I like John & Charles Wesley and George Whitefield... But modern compromised Methodism, NO! I hold to 6 day Creationism, worldwide Flood, Jonah, Moses and a real Adversary/Serpent/Devil/Satan. However, to thoroughly enjoy Billy Graham (a Baptist)


Solid fundamentalist. Familiar with Billy Sunday?

What do you think about Francis Schaeffer? The father, not his son.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_LittleNipper
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _LittleNipper »

Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Solid fundamentalist. Familiar with Billy Sunday?

What do you think about Francis Schaeffer? The father, not his son.
I saw Francis Schaeffer at Liberty --- a very deep thoughtful person. He didn't talk down at people. And yes, I have heard of Billy Sunday (though ordained Presbyterian, he practiced and I am a Nondenominational Fundamentalist). He also once played for the Philadelphia Phillies. :biggrin: (very fast runner)
_kairos
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _kairos »

"I may have some sympathy with your comments but I find it impossible not to think the reverse as well"-huckleberry

hucklebrerry-The Catholic church believes it helps people by allowing belief and surrender to be a community undertaking mediated by grace and sacraments. I think they have a point, I cannot imagine anything less simple and less possible than asking individuals to truly believe and totally surrender. Humans by themselves cannot do these things. You propose an impossible path to salvation.[/quote]

the process is simple but the execution is much much harder as you so correctly point out-often humans have to hit rock bottom in a moral sense before their spirits/hearts/minds can even fathom surrending to God totally and completely-but it does happen. others come to that point because they read or hear the gosple and comprehend the miracles of jesus as signs of his messiahship and then "believe on him" in a act of unselfish surrender.
in a church setting eg RC persons have a set of principles and doctrines and sacramental processes to follow so they can judge for themselves whether they are good or bad, heaven or hell ready. But the RC setting does not often bring the person to a complete and total submission and belief on the LJC. neither does the Mormon setting-there is no altar call in the RC or Mormon settings, but such exists in Bible based free churches or in revival settings which are designed to bring a person to a mental/soul state of surrender. And finally as Calvinist would perhaps proclaim, God chose Paul outside of Paul's acts/works and God chooses persons to be saved the same way-grace(God's unmerited favor/love) and only grace saves!

just sayin
k
_SonOfZeus
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Re: Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

Post by _SonOfZeus »

Water baptism is required for salvation. We know that not only by modern prophets, but through the practice of baptism for the dead. If baptism weren't necessary, why build all these temples? Why have the restoration of the keys of the priesthood? Baptism is necessary for salvation (salvation being defined as Eternal Life) because the temple ordinance we call the endowments are necessary, and baptism is required to receive the endowments.

In the so-called Secret Gospel of Mark, an apocraphal work, a peculiar event is reported that lends credence to the existence of rites other than those mentioned in our Bible:

And when they had gone out from the tomb, they went into the young man’s house; for he was rich. And after six days Jesus commissioned him; and in the evening the young man came to him, clothed only in linen cloth upon his naked body. And he remained with him that night; for Jesus was teaching him the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. And from there he went away and returned to the other bank of the Jordan.

This has led to some rather wild speculations among some non-LDS theologians, yet to latter-day saints it makes perfect sense. What we call “temple rites" were called the “mysteries of the Kingdom of God" among the ancient-day saints.

Thus it is that baptism is required for salvation of the living and the dead.

..
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