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 Post subject: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Why does the Book of Mormon disagree with Mormon Christ ?

The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70) Gordon B Hinckley
We Look to Christ 2002 General Conference April


Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Luke 1:
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, how shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore, also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Brigham Young also said, "Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

Brigham Young said, "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218).


Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;


Image below explains

http://i.imgur.com/M2qItRo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zRvzQC4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PqfjkD0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1L0zICX.jpg

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Last edited by Mittens on Wed May 31, 2017 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:32 pm 
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This is interesting. I just read Melodie Charles idea on how Mormons Christianize and Mormonize the Old Testament and its far more drastic than I had supposed. It's in Vogel's book "The Word of God." Thanks for pointing this out. The only thing that matters to Mormonism is to make all scriptures conform to the teachings of Joseph Smith. No scripture is allowed to stand on its own and have its own story, philosophy, or religion. Joseph Smith's unsupportable claim that the Gospel was had from the very beginning is the culprit. It is the basis of all LDS apologetics using scripture.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:54 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
This is interesting. I just read Melodie Charles idea on how Mormons Christianize and Mormonize the Old Testament and its far more drastic than I had supposed. It's in Vogel's book "The Word of God." Thanks for pointing this out. The only thing that matters to Mormonism is to make all scriptures conform to the teachings of Joseph Smith. No scripture is allowed to stand on its own and have its own story, philosophy, or religion. Joseph Smith's unsupportable claim that the Gospel was had from the very beginning is the culprit. It is the basis of all LDS apologetics using scripture.


http://i.imgur.com/0odD9Rr.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Mittens wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
This is interesting. I just read Melodie Charles idea on how Mormons Christianize and Mormonize the Old Testament and its far more drastic than I had supposed. It's in Vogel's book "The Word of God." Thanks for pointing this out. The only thing that matters to Mormonism is to make all scriptures conform to the teachings of Joseph Smith. No scripture is allowed to stand on its own and have its own story, philosophy, or religion. Joseph Smith's unsupportable claim that the Gospel was had from the very beginning is the culprit. It is the basis of all LDS apologetics using scripture.


http://i.imgur.com/0odD9Rr.jpg


Did you make that graphic? That's pretty darn good!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Yes I did make that graphic

here's another I made

http://i.imgur.com/wxAzin6.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:23 pm 
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First, I believe Brigham Young was using his own terminology to define his beliefs.

Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, but he was not the Son of the Holy Spirit. In other words, it was the Father's seed that was transmitted by the Holy Spirit. Mary did not receive that seed in the way that most all other women do -- through sexual intercourse -- but through intercession of the Holy Spirit.

I realize some teach otherwise, because in the early days of the Church, it was how the seed was conveyed that determined fatherhood. In our day, however, a woman can give birth to a child without ever even meeting the father. And it's the seed of the Father that determines fatherhood.

Regarding the graphics, Jesus Christ, in LDS theology, is and isn't a created being. Using protestant terminology, the creation of man takes place using eternal elements. And the term CREATE means to build using existent elements. Protestants believe in creation out of nothing, which is not taught anywhere in the Bible, but is an assumption. Was Jesus therefore a created being? Yes, he entered mortality as the rest of us did. But he was not created out of nothing. The intelligence housed by his spirit is as Eternal as the Father. By the same token, the same thing is true for all of us, and it doesn't contradict scripture at all to say this. It does, however, contradict protestant understanding of scripture, and if they're the ones doing the graphics, they can make them say anything they wish! But they go too far in saying that Jesus had to “earn" salvation! Where do they get that?

Jesus was born into mortality the way everyone else is, but he is, and was always, sinless and therefore must do nothing to be saved. Had he not been crucified, he would have gone to be with the Father for eternity and would have been saved. We, on the other hand, would have been cast out and would have inherited nothing. We thus would have been subject to the Second Death, which is Spiritual Death, with Satan and his angels. So no, Jesus did not have to earn salvation. Neither was Jesus Christ “common and of minor importance." He also was not a polygamist as far as we know, and some LDS authority stating otherwise doesn't constitute a truism, nor make it doctrine. It may have been an opinion, but it was not a binding teaching because we have no revelation or historical junction for so believing. Paul stated some of his opinions (and so stated) that we don't accept, either, thank goodness. And anti-Mormons know that such teachings are not canon, nor binding in any way.

Would we be justified in saying protestants believe in a flat Earth because some ancient prophet referred to the “firmament" in ancient scripture? I hope not. But creating straw men to knock down is what they do best because they can't best us in an honest debate.

..


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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:18 pm 
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SonOfZeus wrote:
Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, but he was not the Son of the Holy Spirit. In other words, it was the Father's seed that was transmitted by the Holy Spirit. Mary did not receive that seed in the way that most all other women do -- through sexual intercourse -- but through intercession of the Holy Spirit.

artificial insemination; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_insemination (wikipedia) :
Quote:
Artificial insemination (AI) is the deliberate introduction of sperm into a female's uterus or cervix for the purpose of achieving a pregnancy through in vivo fertilization by means other than sexual intercourse. It is a fertility treatment for humans, and is common practice in animal breeding, including dairy cattle (see Frozen bovine semen) and pigs.

apparently the holy spirit is a jolly joker
which technique did he (she? it?) used?
Quote:
1.3 Techniques
1.3.1 Intracervical insemination
1.3.2 Intrauterine insemination
1.3.3 Intrauterine tuboperitoneal insemination
1.3.4 Intratubal insemination

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Choyo Chagas wrote:
apparently the holy spirit is a jolly joker
which technique did he (she? it?) used?
Quote:
1.3 Techniques
1.3.1 Intracervical insemination
1.3.2 Intrauterine insemination
1.3.3 Intrauterine tuboperitoneal insemination
1.3.4 Intratubal insemination

We're not told how it occurred; only that it did. The Bible tells us almost nothing about how anything was done. It's like saying, how did Jesus walk on water? Did he wait for it to freeze or for the tide to go out? Absurdity tells us nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:24 am 
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Mittens wrote:
Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, ...

This has some story parallels with another child born in Bethlehem.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:35 am 
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moksha wrote:
Mittens wrote:
Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, ...

This has some story parallels with another child born in Bethlehem.

Bethlehem is in the land of Jerusalem, and this has been demonstrated many times. Troy (Illium) also was both a city and a land. Other, smaller cities in the immediate region were considered in the land of Illium, and in the epic war with the Greeks, these cities were the first to fall. Achilles, at age 15, gained much of his reputation as a spearman in taking these cities.

When Rome destroyed Jerusalem, Bethlehem was included in the land of the city. This criticism of the Book of Mormon is long in the tooth and was answered years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:36 pm 
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SonOfZeus wrote:
moksha wrote:
This has some story parallels with another child born in Bethlehem.

Bethlehem is in the land of Jerusalem, and this has been demonstrated many times. Troy (Illium) also was both a city and a land. Other, smaller cities in the immediate region were considered in the land of Illium, and in the epic war with the Greeks, these cities were the first to fall. Achilles, at age 15, gained much of his reputation as a spearman in taking these cities.

When Rome destroyed Jerusalem, Bethlehem was included in the land of the city. This criticism of the Book of Mormon is long in the tooth and was answered years ago.

Sounds like some incredible stretching to equate the two. Pretty sure Jerusalem had city walls. Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:22 am 
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moksha wrote:
Sounds like some incredible stretching to equate the two. Pretty sure Jerusalem had city walls. Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

There's no stretching at all. Jerusalem, like many great cities, governed lesser, nearby cities, which were provinces. Bethlehem was a city in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem would not be a recognizable name to the Book of Mormon peoples, but Jerusalem would have. This is actually demonstrable in that we now have an ancient source (one from the Dead Sea Scrolls) that actually refers to Bethlehem as a city “in the land of Jerusalem."

(See http://www.jefflindsay.com/BM_Jerusalem.shtml#Jerus)


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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Can't quite go along with the graphics. I consider many Christians polytheistic. The trinitarian mysteries, the blessed virgin, the saints, etc. don't read like monotheism to me. Don't pass the smell test. Doesn't make them less Christian, just shows that Christianity absorbed lots of other influences on its way from Jewish cult to becoming a world power. Nobody owns "Christ" or "Christian" or "Christianity", no matter how passionate or clever their assertions. Or how ready they are to kill or die for those assertions. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:03 pm 
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SonOfZeus wrote:
Bethlehem was a city in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem would not be a recognizable name to the Book of Mormon peoples, but Jerusalem would have. This is actually demonstrable in that we now have an ancient source (one from the Dead Sea Scrolls) that actually refers to Bethlehem as a city “in the land of Jerusalem."

Is there a non-LDS source that will confirm Bethlehem as a suburb of Jerusalem?

by the way, I thought this all took place in the province of Judaea, or before that the area known as the Kingdom of Judah, rather than the land of Jerusalem. It sounds like some linguistic liberties are being taken to cover up the initial gaffe.

As to not being known to the Book of Mormon peoples, I thought they had insider knowledge, such as having a large portion of the Book of Isaiah and other revelational tidbits, right?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:15 am 
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SonOfZeus wrote:
moksha wrote:
Sounds like some incredible stretching to equate the two. Pretty sure Jerusalem had city walls. Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

There's no stretching at all. Jerusalem, like many great cities, governed lesser, nearby cities, which were provinces. Bethlehem was a city in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem would not be a recognizable name to the Book of Mormon peoples, but Jerusalem would have. This is actually demonstrable in that we now have an ancient source (one from the Dead Sea Scrolls) that actually refers to Bethlehem as a city “in the land of Jerusalem."

(See http://www.jefflindsay.com/BM_Jerusalem.shtml#Jerus)


The Bible says Bethlehem is in the land of Judea not in the land of Jerusalem

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Quote:
Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

No. Both geographers and historians refer to Provo as the Land of Milk and Cookies.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:43 am 
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Mittens, very interesting.

The Book of Mormon's christology is essentially mainstream Nicene, and hardly distinguishable from other denominational teachings about the essence of God. The earliest account(s) of Joseph Smith's first vision also sound similar to other theophanies of the time. (Details about two beings visiting Joseph instead of just one came about - or were finally put down on paper - later.)

Not being an expert in anything, especially LDS history, I'm interested to know more about the early Mormon development of its unique ideas on God and Jesus Christ. I get the sense, reading early temple dedicatory prayers, that the distinction was quite nebulous for a long while, even after Joseph's death. Joseph's most clear exposition on the nature of God may have come from his sermon at King Follett's funeral in April 1844, and again the so-called Sermon in the Grove in May (or June?) 1844.

But then Joseph died in late June 1844, and his contributions to the development of LDS theology ceased, other than our continued hermeneutics on his sermons and discourses and revelations.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book Of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:06 am 
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Wonhyo wrote:
Mittens, very interesting.

The Book of Mormon's christology is essentially mainstream Nicene, and hardly distinguishable from other denominational teachings about the essence of God. The earliest account(s) of Joseph Smith's first vision also sound similar to other theophanies of the time. (Details about two beings visiting Joseph instead of just one came about - or were finally put down on paper - later.)

Not being an expert in anything, especially LDS history, I'm interested to know more about the early Mormon development of its unique ideas on God and Jesus Christ. I get the sense, reading early temple dedicatory prayers, that the distinction was quite nebulous for a long while, even after Joseph's death. Joseph's most clear exposition on the nature of God may have come from his sermon at King Follett's funeral in April 1844, and again the so-called Sermon in the Grove in May (or June?) 1844.

But then Joseph died in late June 1844, and his contributions to the development of LDS theology ceased, other than our continued hermeneutics on his sermons and discourses and revelations.


I agree the Book of Mormon completely agrees with Creeds other than The Athanasion Creed statement of confounding the persons "mixing them up" which was done in these passages

Luke 10:
23 All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. JST

Mosiah 15
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Mosiah 16:
15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.



Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?


Helaman 14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

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