The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

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_moksha
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _moksha »

SonOfZeus wrote:
moksha wrote:This has some story parallels with another child born in Bethlehem.

Bethlehem is in the land of Jerusalem, and this has been demonstrated many times. Troy (Illium) also was both a city and a land. Other, smaller cities in the immediate region were considered in the land of Illium, and in the epic war with the Greeks, these cities were the first to fall. Achilles, at age 15, gained much of his reputation as a spearman in taking these cities.

When Rome destroyed Jerusalem, Bethlehem was included in the land of the city. This criticism of the Book of Mormon is long in the tooth and was answered years ago.

Sounds like some incredible stretching to equate the two. Pretty sure Jerusalem had city walls. Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?
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_SonOfZeus
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _SonOfZeus »

moksha wrote:Sounds like some incredible stretching to equate the two. Pretty sure Jerusalem had city walls. Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

There's no stretching at all. Jerusalem, like many great cities, governed lesser, nearby cities, which were provinces. Bethlehem was a city in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem would not be a recognizable name to the Book of Mormon peoples, but Jerusalem would have. This is actually demonstrable in that we now have an ancient source (one from the Dead Sea Scrolls) that actually refers to Bethlehem as a city “in the land of Jerusalem."

(See http://www.jefflindsay.com/BM_Jerusalem.shtml#Jerus)
_Maksutov
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Maksutov »

Can't quite go along with the graphics. I consider many Christians polytheistic. The trinitarian mysteries, the blessed virgin, the saints, etc. don't read like monotheism to me. Don't pass the smell test. Doesn't make them less Christian, just shows that Christianity absorbed lots of other influences on its way from Jewish cult to becoming a world power. Nobody owns "Christ" or "Christian" or "Christianity", no matter how passionate or clever their assertions. Or how ready they are to kill or die for those assertions. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_moksha
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _moksha »

SonOfZeus wrote:Bethlehem was a city in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem would not be a recognizable name to the Book of Mormon peoples, but Jerusalem would have. This is actually demonstrable in that we now have an ancient source (one from the Dead Sea Scrolls) that actually refers to Bethlehem as a city “in the land of Jerusalem."

Is there a non-LDS source that will confirm Bethlehem as a suburb of Jerusalem?

by the way, I thought this all took place in the province of Judaea, or before that the area known as the Kingdom of Judah, rather than the land of Jerusalem. It sounds like some linguistic liberties are being taken to cover up the initial gaffe.

As to not being known to the Book of Mormon peoples, I thought they had insider knowledge, such as having a large portion of the Book of Isaiah and other revelational tidbits, right?
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_Mittens
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Mittens »

SonOfZeus wrote:
moksha wrote:Sounds like some incredible stretching to equate the two. Pretty sure Jerusalem had city walls. Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

There's no stretching at all. Jerusalem, like many great cities, governed lesser, nearby cities, which were provinces. Bethlehem was a city in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem would not be a recognizable name to the Book of Mormon peoples, but Jerusalem would have. This is actually demonstrable in that we now have an ancient source (one from the Dead Sea Scrolls) that actually refers to Bethlehem as a city “in the land of Jerusalem."

(See http://www.jefflindsay.com/BM_Jerusalem.shtml#Jerus)


The Bible says Bethlehem is in the land of Judea not in the land of Jerusalem
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_moksha
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _moksha »

Could this be similar to Spanish Fork being in the land of Provo?

No. Both geographers and historians refer to Provo as the Land of Milk and Cookies.
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_Wonhyo
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Wonhyo »

Mittens, very interesting.

The Book of Mormon's christology is essentially mainstream Nicene, and hardly distinguishable from other denominational teachings about the essence of God. The earliest account(s) of Joseph Smith's first vision also sound similar to other theophanies of the time. (Details about two beings visiting Joseph instead of just one came about - or were finally put down on paper - later.)

Not being an expert in anything, especially LDS history, I'm interested to know more about the early Mormon development of its unique ideas on God and Jesus Christ. I get the sense, reading early temple dedicatory prayers, that the distinction was quite nebulous for a long while, even after Joseph's death. Joseph's most clear exposition on the nature of God may have come from his sermon at King Follett's funeral in April 1844, and again the so-called Sermon in the Grove in May (or June?) 1844.

But then Joseph died in late June 1844, and his contributions to the development of LDS theology ceased, other than our continued hermeneutics on his sermons and discourses and revelations.
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_Mittens
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Re: The Mormon Christ not in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Mittens »

Wonhyo wrote:Mittens, very interesting.

The Book of Mormon's christology is essentially mainstream Nicene, and hardly distinguishable from other denominational teachings about the essence of God. The earliest account(s) of Joseph Smith's first vision also sound similar to other theophanies of the time. (Details about two beings visiting Joseph instead of just one came about - or were finally put down on paper - later.)

Not being an expert in anything, especially LDS history, I'm interested to know more about the early Mormon development of its unique ideas on God and Jesus Christ. I get the sense, reading early temple dedicatory prayers, that the distinction was quite nebulous for a long while, even after Joseph's death. Joseph's most clear exposition on the nature of God may have come from his sermon at King Follett's funeral in April 1844, and again the so-called Sermon in the Grove in May (or June?) 1844.

But then Joseph died in late June 1844, and his contributions to the development of LDS theology ceased, other than our continued hermeneutics on his sermons and discourses and revelations.


I agree the Book of Mormon completely agrees with Creeds other than The Athanasion Creed statement of confounding the persons "mixing them up" which was done in these passages

Luke 10:
23 All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. JST

Mosiah 15
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Mosiah 16:
15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.



Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?


Helaman 14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
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