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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:47 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
If all one has are feelings one has nothing but doubt.

Self awareness not your strong suit?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:32 pm 
God

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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
If all one has are feelings one has nothing but doubt.

Self awareness not your strong suit?

And you have no doubts? :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:16 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
And you have no doubts? :rolleyes:

About what?

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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:25 pm 
God

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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
And you have no doubts? :rolleyes:


About what?
Where you will spend eternity?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:20 am 
God

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LittleNipper wrote:
Quote:
About what?

Where you will spend eternity?

Nobody knows, but it will be the same place as you!

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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:13 am 
God

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I have a question wrote:
Nobody knows, but it will be the same place as you!
Well, I pray you will; however, how do you know? What do you base your premise upon? And what will it the ramifications if you are wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:32 am 
God

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LittleNipper wrote:
I have a question wrote:
Nobody knows, but it will be the same place as you!
Well, I pray you will; however, how do you know? What do you base your premise upon? And what will it the ramifications if you are wrong?
No idea. I'm not going to worry about knowing the unknowable. Instead, I choose to live like this life is all there is. Once you've burnt your 'next life' boats it really focus's your mind on getting the most out of your life. This life. You should try it.

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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:55 am 
God

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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
[ Well, I pray you will; however, how do you know? What do you base your premise upon? And what will it the ramifications if you are wrong?
No idea. I'm not going to worry about knowing the unknowable. Instead, I choose to live like this life is all there is. Once you've burnt your 'next life' boats it really focus's your mind on getting the most out of your life. This life. You should try it.


MY, isn't that a narrow minded view! First, how long do you expect to live? And second, how long do you imagine you will remain mobile? To think that Christians don't live is to suggest that living is all about one's self. I had a wonderful childhood (not without its share of Beaver Cleaver problems but happy for the most port). I was a scout, missed the Vietnam draft, traveled, married, have a child, drove a variety of automobiles, walked in the woods, smelled the flowers, enjoy swimming, drew, painted, collected stamps, refinished furniture, raided antique shops, rode a train, enjoy toy trains, rode on a ship, flew, walked in the snow, went sledding, seen Broadway shows, acted in several plays, am an avid vintage record collector --- but I still have a future and an eternity to enjoy even better things. After your first stroke, heart attack, or bout with cancer ---- what will you have to look forward to..? And such things don't often wait until one is 90. Life is very short and seems to speed up as one ages. One day you're a hairy chested buck who is eye candy for the girls and then suddenly you're an old man with grey hair (if you're lucky), and I still have my sense of humor which is more than I can say regarding most individuals today. :ugeek: Burning one's candle a both ends makes a dandy fire, but in 50 years, who will care?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:46 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I choose to live like this life is all there is. Once you've burnt your 'next life' boats it really focus's your mind on getting the most out of your life. This life. You should try it.

LittleNipper wrote:
MY, isn't that a narrow minded view!

Says the man who makes a list of life experiences that he narrow-mindedly considers constitutes a full life. Walked in the woods did you? And drove various automobiles? :lol: Wow! :rolleyes:
One of the great enjoyments in life is the ability to reason and learn. There is enjoyment in physical activities like hiking and surfing and dance etc and there is enjoyment in the process of learning and challenging yourself mentally as well. This is the area where fundies remain mentally atrophied. Can't grasp evolution. Can't grasp physics and the sciences. Mental blocks instead. So no, you don't get a full life experience.

Quote:
First, how long do you expect to live? And second, how long do you imagine you will remain mobile?

Exactly! When you imagine you are going to live forever you can just coast along without making the most of your time to live. You waste your time doing mundane things like witnessing to others, attending Sunday School, reading a ridiculous book like the Bible over and over and over again. But it's all good because you didn't miss out on walking in the snow a few times or you got a moment to refinish some furniture. To be really good at something you have to devote something like 10,000 hours to it. It's why the Beatles were such good musicians. You can't get that kind of devotion to a skill or a subject if you are wasting the amount of time a typical Christian wastes with church and religious activities.

Quote:
To think that Christians don't live is to suggest that living is all about one's self.

Who else would living be about? If you don't choose for yourself what matters to you and what your life is all about then you are living someone else's life and not your own. Want a family and children? Fine, if that is who you are. Not fine if that is not you, but you do it anyhow because you imagine it's what you are supposed to do, either because it's what others do or because you think it's your religious duty.

Quote:
I still have a future and an eternity to enjoy even better things. After your first stroke, heart attack, or bout with cancer ---- what will you have to look forward to..?

The same as you. Do you not see this? If there is nothing after death then you have in reality nothing to look forward to. You simply imagine that you do. If there is an existence beyond the grave then we both will experience an existence beyond the grave despite one of us not believing such exists prior to death. What your real concern is about is this fear that this "great god" is going to send us to endless torment for eternity because we didn't make a choice to believe something that frankly isn't worth serious consideration in the first place. It doesn't make any sense. It's an affront to our common sense of fairness and decency. We are greater in our love and charity than your god. That's how we know he's a fake, a fraud.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:51 pm 
God

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spotlight wrote:
I have a question wrote:
I choose to live like this life is all there is. Once you've burnt your 'next life' boats it really focus's your mind on getting the most out of your life. This life. You should try it.

LittleNipper wrote:
MY, isn't that a narrow minded view!

Says the man who makes a list of life experiences that he narrow-mindedly considers constitutes a full life. Walked in the woods did you? And drove various automobiles? :lol: Wow! :rolleyes:
One of the great enjoyments in life is the ability to reason and learn. There is enjoyment in physical activities like hiking and surfing and dance etc and there is enjoyment in the process of learning and challenging yourself mentally as well. This is the area where fundies remain mentally atrophied. Can't grasp evolution. Can't grasp physics and the sciences. Mental blocks instead. So no, you don't get a full life experience.

Quote:
First, how long do you expect to live? And second, how long do you imagine you will remain mobile?

Exactly! When you imagine you are going to live forever you can just coast along without making the most of your time to live. You waste your time doing mundane things like witnessing to others, attending Sunday School, reading a ridiculous book like the Bible over and over and over again. But it's all good because you didn't miss out on walking in the snow a few times or you got a moment to refinish some furniture. To be really good at something you have to devote something like 10,000 hours to it. It's why the Beatles were such good musicians. You can't get that kind of devotion to a skill or a subject if you are wasting the amount of time a typical Christian wastes with church and religious activities.

Quote:
To think that Christians don't live is to suggest that living is all about one's self.

Who else would living be about? If you don't choose for yourself what matters to you and what your life is all about then you are living someone else's life and not your own. Want a family and children? Fine, if that is who you are. Not fine if that is not you, but you do it anyhow because you imagine it's what you are supposed to do, either because it's what others do or because you think it's your religious duty.

Quote:
I still have a future and an eternity to enjoy even better things. After your first stroke, heart attack, or bout with cancer ---- what will you have to look forward to..?

The same as you. Do you not see this? If there is nothing after death then you have in reality nothing to look forward to. You simply imagine that you do. If there is an existence beyond the grave then we both will experience an existence beyond the grave despite one of us not believing such exists prior to death. What your real concern is about is this fear that this "great god" is going to send us to endless torment for eternity because we didn't make a choice to believe something that frankly isn't worth serious consideration in the first place. It doesn't make any sense. It's an affront to our common sense of fairness and decency. We are greater in our love and charity than your god. That's how we know he's a fake, a fraud.

I don't fear endless torment. I'm saved and have a real SAVIOR. I cannot lose my salvation. If I'm right you're in trouble. If you're right I'll never know. The reality is that I'm content and very happy and the Bible makes total sense to me, and I see what society has become without Christ. And this alternative even in this life is not worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:27 pm 
God

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LittleNipper wrote:
I don't fear endless torment. I'm saved and have a real SAVIOR. I cannot lose my salvation. If I'm right you're in trouble. If you're right I'll never know. The reality is that I'm content and very happy and the Bible makes total sense to me, and I see what society has become without Christ. And this alternative even in this life is not worth it.

If you are so comfortable with your thoughts and opinions, why are you on here trying to justify them to other people? That's the sign of someone fishing around trying to quell his unease by getting others to corroborate his opinion.

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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:33 pm 
God

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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I don't fear endless torment. I'm saved and have a real SAVIOR. I cannot lose my salvation. If I'm right you're in trouble. If you're right I'll never know. The reality is that I'm content and very happy and the Bible makes total sense to me, and I see what society has become without Christ. And this alternative even in this life is not worth it.

If you are so comfortable with your thoughts and opinions, why are you on here trying to justify them to other people? That's the sign of someone fishing around trying to quell his unease by getting others to corroborate his opinion.

Why do you care? :ugeek: I'm here doing what Jesus said to do, "Go ye unto all the world and preach the Gospel to EVERY person." The GOSPEL isn't the book of Mormon nor the prophet of the CJCLDS. they have no salvation value whatsoever, and I believe Christ through the moving of the Holy Spirit is proving this to more and more people.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:01 am 
God

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LittleNipper wrote:
The GOSPEL isn't the book of Mormon nor the prophet of the CJCLDS. they have no salvation value whatsoever...
The Book of Mormon and the Prophet of the CJCLDS have as much credibility as anything you're promoting.
Quote:
and I believe Christ through the moving of the Holy Spirit is proving this to more and more people.
What's your objective evidence for that statement?

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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:42 am 
God

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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
The GOSPEL isn't the book of Mormon nor the prophet of the CJCLDS. they have no salvation value whatsoever...
The Book of Mormon and the Prophet of the CJCLDS have as much credibility as anything you're promoting.
Quote:
and I believe Christ through the moving of the Holy Spirit is proving this to more and more people.
What's your objective evidence for that statement?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The Bible possesses REAL HISTORY!

https://www.foxnews.com/science/major-b ... -signature

The prophets while men of GOD were all pre Christ or knew Christ. John who was given the Revelation of Jesus was the last and died.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:42 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
I don't fear endless torment.

Then you don't believe in the mission of Jesus since he supposedly came to save us from it.

Quote:
I'm saved and have a real SAVIOR. I cannot lose my salvation. If I'm right you're in trouble. If you're right I'll never know.

Why did you seek salvation from Jesus? What were you afraid of? :lol: Self-contradition much?
Why would I be in any trouble. Salvation is free and by grace. Or did I miss something there?

Quote:
The reality is that I'm content and very happy and the Bible makes total sense to me,

And kids with down syndrome are very happy to believe in Santa when others their own age have moved on. Santa makes total sense to them. So what?

Quote:
and I see what society has become without Christ. And this alternative even in this life is not worth it.

Make religion great again. Bring back the inquisition or the crusades. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:54 am 
God

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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I don't fear endless torment.

Then you don't believe in the mission of Jesus since he supposedly came to save us from it.

Quote:
I'm saved and have a real SAVIOR. I cannot lose my salvation. If I'm right you're in trouble. If you're right I'll never know.

Why did you seek salvation from Jesus? What were you afraid of? :lol: Self-contradition much?
Why would I be in any trouble. Salvation is free and by grace. Or did I miss something there?

Quote:
The reality is that I'm content and very happy and the Bible makes total sense to me,

And kids with down syndrome are very happy to believe in Santa when others their own age have moved on. Santa makes total sense to them. So what?

Quote:
and I see what society has become without Christ. And this alternative even in this life is not worth it.

Make religion great again. Bring back the inquisition or the crusades. :rolleyes:

You make no logical sense. One must depend on Jesus for his/her salvation. Once saved that individual is sealed by the Holy Spirit forever. But if one rejects Christ one will face eternal separation and eternal torment of one sort or another. So, while I no longer have anything to fear ---- it would seem you should.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:16 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
You make no logical sense. One must depend on Jesus for his/her salvation. Once saved that individual is sealed by the Holy Spirit forever. But if one rejects Christ one will face eternal separation and eternal torment of one sort or another. So, while I no longer have anything to fear ---- it would seem you should.

No Nipper it is your theology that makes no logical sense. First you declare that we are saved by grace through no work of our own. Then you state that some of us are saved while others of us are not saved. So some work on our part however small is required in order to be saved. You won't even admit this much which is comical. Then because of this very tiny work on our part we receive a very great and disproportionate reward or punishment as though it were a very great thing on our part. It makes no logical sense. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:47 pm 
God

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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
You make no logical sense. One must depend on Jesus for his/her salvation. Once saved that individual is sealed by the Holy Spirit forever. But if one rejects Christ one will face eternal separation and eternal torment of one sort or another. So, while I no longer have anything to fear ---- it would seem you should.

No Nipper it is your theology that makes no logical sense. First you declare that we are saved by grace through no work of our own. Then you state that some of us are saved while others of us are not saved. So some work on our part however small is required in order to be saved. You won't even admit this much which is comical. Then because of this very tiny work on our part we receive a very great and disproportionate reward or punishment as though it were a very great thing on our part. It makes no logical sense. :lol:

Faith is not a work we do. Faith is a work GOD manifests within us. A person like yourself that rejects the faith the Holy Spirit manifests hardens his heart and expels GOD. It's through the grace of GOD that we are given any chance at all at salvation. GOD isn't going to beat you over the head with the grace He freely distributes. The work an ingrate does is to reject the faith GOD provided. This is the one sin that GOD cannot forgive --- to reject the HOLY SPIRIT's leading of faith.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:20 pm 
God
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LittleNipper wrote:
Faith is not a work we do. Faith is a work GOD manifests within us. A person like yourself that rejects the faith the Holy Spirit manifests hardens his heart and expels GOD. It's through the grace of GOD that we are given any chance at all at salvation. GOD isn't going to beat you over the head with the grace He freely distributes. The work an ingrate does is to reject the faith GOD provided. This is the one sin that GOD cannot forgive --- to reject the HOLY SPIRIT's leading of faith.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian Nipper, rather I'm trying to extract from you a clear definition of what it is that we do on our part to become saved rather than remain on our way to eternal punishment. If I read you correctly you are saying now that in your view we all are given faith but that we can choose to reject it.

So if we do nothing at all we become saved each and every one of us? But how does one reject this faith lacking any experience of it? I was not born with any faith in a god. My parents avoided indoctrinating us into any religion and never broached the subject of theism within our home having decided, I suppose, that it would do more harm than good to do so. So now what? A human exists that does not experience the faith you claim is given to everyone. Are they lying? There was never any spirit at any time in my life that led me to believe anything about a god. When I joined a church at a young age I did so believing those who taught me knew whereof they spoke. That was never borne out over time.

So say for the sake of argument that I were to accept your religious views as having merit. Now what do I do exactly? Do I pretend to experience the influence of some spirit so I can be saved? You see your experience is yours alone and it seems a bit arrogant to say that because you think you felt a spirit that you know others are having this experience as well, because I am not and never have.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:51 pm 
God

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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Faith is not a work we do. Faith is a work GOD manifests within us. A person like yourself that rejects the faith the Holy Spirit manifests hardens his heart and expels GOD. It's through the grace of GOD that we are given any chance at all at salvation. GOD isn't going to beat you over the head with the grace He freely distributes. The work an ingrate does is to reject the faith GOD provided. This is the one sin that GOD cannot forgive --- to reject the HOLY SPIRIT's leading of faith.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian Nipper, rather I'm trying to extract from you a clear definition of what it is that we do on our part to become saved rather than remain on our way to eternal punishment. If I read you correctly you are saying now that in your view we all are given faith but that we can choose to reject it.

So if we do nothing at all we become saved each and every one of us? But how does one reject this faith lacking any experience of it? I was not born with any faith in a god. My parents avoided indoctrinating us into any religion and never broached the subject of theism within our home having decided, I suppose, that it would do more harm than good to do so. So now what? A human exists that does not experience the faith you claim is given to everyone. Are they lying? There was never any spirit at any time in my life that led me to believe anything about a god. When I joined a church at a young age I did so believing those who taught me knew whereof they spoke. That was never borne out over time.

So say for the sake of argument that I were to accept your religious views as having merit. Now what do I do exactly? Do I pretend to experience the influence of some spirit so I can be saved? You see your experience is yours alone and it seems a bit arrogant to say that because you think you felt a spirit that you know others are having this experience as well, because I am not and never have.

You beseech GOD to save you and thank GOD for sending Jesus Christ to pay the penalty you (we all) should have paid in full (eternal separation from GOD). After that GOD will begin to lead you and bring you closer and closer to HIM. I believe GOD will give you a clearer understanding of scripture and through His eyes you will gain discernment that is not based on "feelings" but a foundation of real substance...


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:16 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
You beseech GOD to save you and thank GOD for sending Jesus Christ to pay the penalty you (we all) should have paid in full (eternal separation from GOD). After that GOD will begin to lead you and bring you closer and closer to HIM. I believe GOD will give you a clearer understanding of scripture and through His eyes you will gain discernment that is not based on "feelings" but a foundation of real substance...

What you describe is a process of confirmation bias. Been there done that. It isn't evidence of anything more than man's ability to believe weird stuff.

So anyone who without having up to this point in time any reason or evidence whatsoever to believe there is such a thing as a god must beseech and thank this god? How would one do that exactly at this point in time? Doesn't make any sense. What makes less sense is this god sending people off to suffer eternally for failing to do this with no reason whatsoever to do it - at this point in time.

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