Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Creeds

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_Maksutov
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Maksutov »

SteelHead wrote:Because is us 19th century modern pseudopigripha.


Ka-ching.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_SonOfZeus
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _SonOfZeus »

Mittens wrote:What’s interesting The Book of Mormon teaches the opposite about the Godhead, rather than three gods and a plurality of gods it teaches only ONE GOD in the Godhead. Even the President of Mormonism commented that the paramount and fullness of the Gospel found in the Book of Mormonism is the ONE GOD of the Trinity.

In what sense is God ONE? And what is the definition of “GOD”? Even the Bible is inconsistent on this; however, I believe that Joseph Smith brilliantly clarified who God is and how He relates to the human race.

For example, Isaiah writes:

Isaiah 44
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.


Isaiah 45
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

This language is pretty specific and creates a major problem for Christians. For example, who is speaking? YHVH, the God of Israel? The one we later call Jesus Christ? If taken literally, where, we ask, is the Father? Where is the Holy Spirit? Are they being thrown under the bus in the name of monotheism?

In Genesis 1, Moses tells us that the GODS (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, and they created MAN in their image, “male and female.”

“MAN has become as one of us,” we're told. This appears to be an outright contradiction with what God said through Isaiah. Or did these GODS die, leaving only ONE? Yet Evangelicals toss the Isaiah passages at us, accusing us of being polytheists! They fail to see that the Isaiah passages present the same problems to them as they do for latter-day saints.

Yet in context they present no problem at all.

When Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, he said, “...that THEY may be ONE, even as WE are ONE”:

John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This passage tells us that the term “ONE” is esoteric in nature. When Jesus prayed to the Father, it was an interaction between one GOD to another. In Psalms 110, we read: “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” This was interpreted by Matthew as the Father speaking to the Son (David's Lord):

Matthew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

When the Lord speaks to Isaiah, we must take his comments pertaining to the oneness of God as being one in purpose. In Mormon doctrine, all saints who gain eternal life and become like God and joint heirs with Christ become partakers of that oneness. We become ONE with him, and we are in him, and he is in us. Thus, when God speaks of His oneness in Isaiah 44 and 45, we see that His oneness does not preclude those who join and partake in that oneness. Again, please note: “they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”

Thus, the God of Joseph Smith is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, and, also, the God of Lehi, Nephi and the rest of the Book of Mormon prophets. And though be Lords many and gods many, to us there is ONE God.
_Gray Ghost
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Gray Ghost »

The Book of Mormon also teaches penal substitution atonement, a doctrine that didn't really get off the ground until the 11th century AD.
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Gray Ghost »

Gray Ghost wrote:The Book of Mormon also teaches penal substitution atonement, a doctrine that didn't really get off the ground until the 11th century AD.


Also it teaches the general resurrection - that would post-date Lehi by many centuries. Daniel was written 150 years or so before the birth of Jesus, and that starts off talking about the resurrection of deserving Jewish martyrs, and it evolves from there.
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Mittens »

SonOfZeus wrote:
Mittens wrote:What’s interesting The Book of Mormon teaches the opposite about the Godhead, rather than three gods and a plurality of gods it teaches only ONE GOD in the Godhead. Even the President of Mormonism commented that the paramount and fullness of the Gospel found in the Book of Mormonism is the ONE GOD of the Trinity.

In what sense is God ONE? And what is the definition of “GOD”? Even the Bible is inconsistent on this; however, I believe that Joseph Smith brilliantly clarified who God is and how He relates to the human race.

For example, Isaiah writes:

Isaiah 44
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.


Isaiah 45
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

This language is pretty specific and creates a major problem for Christians. For example, who is speaking? YHVH, the God of Israel? The one we later call Jesus Christ? If taken literally, where, we ask, is the Father? Where is the Holy Spirit? Are they being thrown under the bus in the name of monotheism?

In Genesis 1, Moses tells us that the GODS (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, and they created MAN in their image, “male and female.”

“MAN has become as one of us,” we're told. This appears to be an outright contradiction with what God said through Isaiah. Or did these GODS die, leaving only ONE? Yet Evangelicals toss the Isaiah passages at us, accusing us of being polytheists! They fail to see that the Isaiah passages present the same problems to them as they do for latter-day saints.

Yet in context they present no problem at all.

When Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, he said, “...that THEY may be ONE, even as WE are ONE”:

John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This passage tells us that the term “ONE” is esoteric in nature. When Jesus prayed to the Father, it was an interaction between one GOD to another. In Psalms 110, we read: “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” This was interpreted by Matthew as the Father speaking to the Son (David's Lord):

Matthew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

When the Lord speaks to Isaiah, we must take his comments pertaining to the oneness of God as being one in purpose. In Mormon doctrine, all saints who gain eternal life and become like God and joint heirs with Christ become partakers of that oneness. We become ONE with him, and we are in him, and he is in us. Thus, when God speaks of His oneness in Isaiah 44 and 45, we see that His oneness does not preclude those who join and partake in that oneness. Again, please note: “they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”

Thus, the God of Joseph Smith is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, and, also, the God of Lehi, Nephi and the rest of the Book of Mormon prophets. And though be Lords many and gods many, to us there is ONE God.



Here in Isaiah we have all three members of the Godhead

Isaiah 48:

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:

I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;

From the time that it was, I was there.

And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit

Have sent Me.”
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Mittens
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Mittens »

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

1. (n.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.

Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Amore
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Amore »

Exiled wrote:It was a man made invention just like the Bible.

Yes, and it was largely based on the Bible - and the New Testament is considered to be written/collected/cherry picked around 5th century.

But who cares? Star wars has some ridiculous ideas but still has some truths. History, science, and religion each have their own unique specific perspectives and lessons to teach. I don’t look in the scriptures for history or science - but for spirituality parables and symbols to “liken to” my life.
_huckelberry
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _huckelberry »

Amore wrote:
Exiled wrote:It was a man made invention just like the Bible.

Yes, and it was largely based on the Bible - and the New Testament is considered to be written/collected/cherry picked around 5th century.

But who cares? Star wars has some ridiculous ideas but still has some truths. History, science, and religion each have their own unique specific perspectives and lessons to teach. I don’t look in the scriptures for history or science - but for spirituality parables and symbols to “liken to” my life.


I am not even close to believing this.It was written first century and collected in the following couple. It was selected by the church from church documents and excluded other documents from other groups.

I realize some scholars consider early second century for composition for a few late pieces of the New Testament but that is many years before 5thcentury.
_Amore
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _Amore »

Hi Huckelberry,
I’m referring to biblical canon being gathered... “The Apostles did not otherwise leave a defined set of new scriptures; instead, the New Testament developed over time.” The following link explains canon related events from 1st century to 600’s and mentions changes with Martin Luther in 1500’s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

The more important point is that all of these writings have been through a lot & have been written, cherry-picked, edited, translated and changed by many fallible people. As with anything, I try to take the best and leave the rest.
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Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr

Post by _moksha »

Amore (oh-oh, Volare...), that was an interesting read. Neat to find out that the commandment to be monogamous only appears in the Samaritan version of the Pentateuch. Perhaps that was from the Samaritans not having to accommodate the behavior of profligate kings.
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