Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

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_Maksutov
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _Maksutov »

pogi wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Call it whatever you want, it's your religion. :lol: You have to live with it. We get to comment on it. :cool: You may experience some discomfort. :biggrin:


Correction, I get to live with it :wink:

Comment away! I enjoy the dialogue, but it would just be nice if critics stopped making false accusations. If you are going to let us define our own religion, at least respect that right and accept it when we tell you that we don't worship our leaders (at least in the way that some imply). Thanks!


Good for you, don't worship them. Just trust them. A wise man once said "Trust but verify." You should verify them, too. There is plenty of reason not to trust them. If you want to trust them, it may be that you just don't trust yourself. And you may have reasons for that. It's all within your rights as an American, if you are one. You can believe absolutely anything you want. And you may have noticed that people do.

We critics probably make false accusations and true accusations. Just like Mormons do. (I would love to see you define "Mormonism", for sure.)

You see, pogi, it comes down to the magic rock. Con men use magic rocks. That was always true and always will be. If he could lie about magic rocks, polygamy and translating Egyptian, he could certainly lie about visions and meetings with personages. He could even get witnesses to sign their names to things that didn't happen--it's totally possible and far more likely than some backwoods theophany. The 19th century was all about people seeing angels and spooks that somehow haven't persisted into our present day. No, we live in the age of excuses and denial. The prophets have no discernment, can't use the magic rock and outsource their duties to administrators, BYU researchers and attorneys.

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"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_pogi
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _pogi »

Maksutov wrote:Good for you, don't worship them. Just trust them. A wise man once said "Trust but verify." You should verify them, too. There is plenty of reason not to trust them. If you want to trust them, it may be that you just don't trust yourself. And you may have reasons for that. It's all within your rights as an American, if you are one. You can believe absolutely anything you want. And you may have noticed that people do.

We critics probably make false accusations and true accusations. Just like Mormons do. (I would love to see you define "Mormonism", for sure.)

You see, pogi, it comes down to the magic rock. Con men use magic rocks. That was always true and always will be. If he could lie about magic rocks, polygamy and translating Egyptian, he could certainly lie about visions and meetings with personages. He could even get witnesses to sign their names to things that didn't happen--it's totally possible and far more likely than some backwoods theophany. The 19th century was all about people seeing angels and spooks that somehow haven't persisted into our present day. No, we live in the age of excuses and denial. The prophets have no discernment, can't use the magic rock and outsource their duties to administrators, BYU researchers and attorneys.

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Trust and verify. Good advice. Thanks.
_Themis
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _Themis »

pogi wrote:No, I mean let go of the idea that Mormon's worship their leaders. We don't.


Many religious people including LDS do have worship like tendencies towards their leaders. It's one of the reasons so many religious leaders can, if they want to, get sexual access to some members or just get their money. :wink:
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_pogi
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _pogi »

Themis wrote:
pogi wrote:No, I mean let go of the idea that Mormon's worship their leaders. We don't.


Many religious people including LDS do have worship like tendencies towards their leaders. It's one of the reasons so many religious leaders can, if they want to, get sexual access to some members or just get their money. :wink:


Why do you limit these tendencies to just religious people? Celebrity "worship" is just as common among the more secular in society. Just watch the old Beatles concerts :wink:

Yes, sex is rampant among the general authorities...they are regular Mick Jagger's!
I have no idea what you are talking about with money. Are you talking about tithing? or something else?
_Themis
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _Themis »

pogi wrote:Why do you limit these tendencies to just religious people? Celebrity "worship" is just as common among the more secular in society. Just watch the old Beatles concerts :wink:


Nothing in my post suggested it was just limited to religious people or religious leaders.

Yes, sex is rampant among the general authorities...they are regular Mick Jagger's!


The church today has been around for a while so most people who can make it into higher positions have to at least pretend to be really good for decades so you will find few who are sleeping around. It's is common with Religious founders which is exactly what we see with Joseph Smith.

I have no idea what you are talking about with money. Are you talking about tithing? or something else?


It's a general idea religious people who have worship like tendencies with their leaders create easy situations in which leaders can easily remove them of their money.
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_Mittens
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _Mittens »

http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalm ... ttles.html

Jesus is The Great I AM the self-existing GOD
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Maksutov
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _Maksutov »

pogi wrote:Why do you limit these tendencies to just religious people? Celebrity "worship" is just as common among the more secular in society. Just watch the old Beatles concerts :wink:

Yes, sex is rampant among the general authorities...they are regular Mick Jagger's!
I have no idea what you are talking about with money. Are you talking about tithing? or something else?


Sex was rampant among general authorities once upon a time. Joseph would have given Mick a run for his money. Joseph clearly was rock star material. :lol:

Mormon leaders don't have big salaries and I don't think they're doing criminal things with the money. Mormons don't have to pay tithing but they do have to pay to play in the highest levels, like many religions and groups. I think that the biggest problem with the focus on the leaders is that the members develop excessive, undue faith in men. The brethren can say "God" and "Jesus" with every breath but there's a human being right in front of you who may be helping or hurting you with Jesus and God right there in his mouth. You aren't interacting with God or Jesus. You don't hand you tithing over to God or Jesus. You give it to men. Men whom you may believe are different, better than other men, which is even beyond trust. And so when men with God and Jesus in their mouths come to you with affiliation fraud you will be their favorite target.

Sheep are shorn and slaughtered. The shepherds do not love their flocks, they live off of them. The fact that the sheep seem unaware or uncaring does not mean that the shepherd loves them or thinks about them, only that they are too stupid or apathetic or confused to recognize their predicament. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_I have a question
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _I have a question »

pogi wrote:
I have a question wrote:Got any examples of the current Prophets being wrong right now?
And got any examples of you acting against their counsel/voting to not sustain because you believe them to be wrong?


Sorry, I am not going to play this game when I don't see any point to it. Why would that make a difference? Believing a person to be wrong or right is not equivalent to worship. What if I NEVER questioned a single prophet because I fully believe that EVERY word they speak is inspired by God? Would that equate to people worship? No, it wouldn't. It might equate to blind trust, but not worship.


And there you have it folks.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Amore
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Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP

Post by _Amore »

My previous bishop and I argued. He insisted that church leaders never made mistakes & would never lead us astray. I pointed out that if he believed they were infallible etc, then he was deifying them - having other gods before God.
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