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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:16 pm 
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DrW wrote:

For the record, I have worked with (and/or mentored) BYU graduates who went on to commercial success in innovation. Some of them have done quite well for themselves.

After posting this ^, I felt inspired to try to follow up on a couple of the companies of individuals from BYU with whom I worked to see how they were doing after all these years.

Wouldn't you know it - the first one I googled has since been a defendant in a patent infringement lawsuit brought by a major player in the industry. This mess eventually involved BYU, the patent assignee (owner). Won't say much more about the case because additional information could allow IRL identification of the individuals involved.

Let us just say that the whole mess did not reflect well on BYU as a Church university or a center for technology innovation.

(One would expect real innovation companies to be plaintiffs, and not defendants, in such actions.)

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:35 pm 
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DrW wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Dr W, I agree with you that thinking that god did it is an idea that does not explain or understand how anything works and has no place in science. I think it is also so thin that it does not qualify as religion either.

I still hold the view that science and religion are different activities acting in their own purview.

Huckleberry,

Do you mean like non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)?

NOMA has been pretty thoroughly discredited. The problem is that religion (and especially Mormonism) makes affirmative, objective statements that can be scientifically evaluated, or tested, for validity. When so tested, most are falsified.


Like Nibley saying Joseph Smith never pretended to know Egyptian which we can scientifically test by simply reading Facsimile 3 and see what he said about the Egyptian. Truly! Joseph Smith made direct empirical claims which science can and has tested. Even falling back on testimony doesn't save the religious claims anymore. Credibility has sunk to all time lows.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:37 pm 
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So too a hatred of Intellectualism, Feminism, Homosexuality, fundamental Human Rights.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Science is like Kung Fu. Some people have strong Kung Fu, some don't.

Science is the art of observation and application. Some do it better than others.

Religion in general is trying to achieve something quite separate then academic science, but their science is still quite strong.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:29 am 
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SPG wrote:
Science is like Kung Fu. Some people have strong Kung Fu, some don't.

Science is the art of observation and application. Some do it better than others.

Religion in general is trying to achieve something quite separate then academic science, but their science is still quite strong.

Okay. That does it.

Celestial Forum notwithstanding, the above have to be three of the most ridiculous "insights" to ever appear in one post in the history of the board. The fact that it's a three-insight post qualifies it as pure nonsense.

Who is this guy?

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


Last edited by DrW on Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:52 am 
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DrW wrote:
SPG wrote:
Science is like Kung Fu. Some people have strong Kung Fu, some don't.

Science is the art of observation and application. Some do it better than others.

Religion in general is trying to achieve something quite separate then academic science, but their science is still quite strong.

Okay. That does it.

Celestial Forum notwithstanding, the above have to be three of the most ridiculous sentences to ever appear in one post in the history of the board. The fact that it's a three sentence post qualifies it as pure nonsense.

Who is this guy?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Franktalk's soul brother. The woo industry caters to these guys, DrW, and it's more exciting and has more celebrities than those creepy mean ole empiricists. Science is a mere cult and con jobs while dudes who have profound feelings rule. Ergo, SPG.

Seriously, we regularly see these kind of Eloi parasitical types nowadays. But they're stimulating the economy, because pseudoscience above all things is a commercial enterprise. I find it more pernicious even than religion lately. :eek:

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:53 am 
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SPG wrote:
Science is like Kung Fu. Some people have strong Kung Fu, some don't.

Science is the art of observation and application. Some do it better than others.

Religion in general is trying to achieve something quite separate then academic science, but their science is still quite strong.



Maksutov wrote:
DrW wrote:
Okay. That does it.

Celestial Forum notwithstanding, the above have to be three of the most ridiculous sentences to ever appear in one post in the history of the board. The fact that it's a three sentence post qualifies it as pure nonsense.

Who is this guy?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Franktalk's soul brother. The woo industry caters to these guys, DrW, and it's more exciting and has more celebrities than those creepy mean ole empiricists. Science is a mere cult and con jobs while dudes who have profound feelings rule. Ergo, SPG.

Seriously, we regularly see these kind of Eloi parasitical types nowadays. But they're stimulating the economy, because pseudoscience above all things is a commercial enterprise. I find it more pernicious even than religion lately. :eek:


What I have noticed, other then I get compared to FrankTalk a lot, is that many people think they can "own a term" such as science, marriage, religion, truth, salvation, God, etc. These are universal terms that anyone can use to express an idea.

But lets take the science of religion, for example, even looking at cults. You usually have a very common and consistent element called a cult leader. He plays people's guilt, fear, desire for forgiveness, etc. It's very scientific. You can make a recipe of a cult leader, and recipe for a cult member.

But it goes beyond that. Why does the human psyche need salvation, forgiveness, purpose, etc? In answering this question, academic science pretty much drops the ball, calling it all nonsense. Yet, the most important element of any human is their identity. A mother cannot love her child unless she is a mother, and "mother" is part of identity. A woman can love any child, but there must still be a reason coded into her identity. A good woman might love many children, but then we must define what a good woman is, and what is a bad woman, etc. A bad woman might hate children in general.

Identity is king of motivation in human. Who we are, is everything to us. And yes, mock me if you want, but there is a science to how identity works. Over thousands of years, in trying to define ourselves, we have involved Gods and other worldly realms. We admit those realms are not physical, but rather are spiritual. They are more idealistic. Plato called first named these realms, The Realm of Forms. Such as, there is no such thing as a "True Triangle" in our physical world, but we make things that "look like triangles." Triangles are very scientific, but they are an ideal that will probably never be perfected in our universe. But, we can express them in math form to give people that general idea, and we use the ideas in our projects.

While what we deem as "academic science" is teaching ideas like triangles and curves, religion teaches other ideas that are also truth. Religion teaches ideas like marriage, honor, honesty, patience, steadfastness, motherhood, fatherhood, etc. These ideas are more important to enter heaven.

I was just watching a TED talk yesterday about a EMT Medic He talked about how he had watched many people die. Many would of course ask him, "Am I going to die?" At first he tried to lie to them because he didn't want to upset them, but eventually started telling them the truth. He said, that a pattern became very clear as people realized that they were going to die.

1. Wanted forgiveness.
2. Wished they had done more good to be remembered by.
3. Wanted loved ones to know they were loved.

Note that I didn't say they wished they had taken more science classes, or earned more money.

When the final curtain falls, what people wish they had, is more religion. They wish they had been more kind, been more loved, had more friends, more confidence that they would be remembered.

Granted, this is at the end of a person's life. You might argue, that doesn't have anything to do with how they live. But to me, this says that in our heart of hearts, what we really want from life, is what we wish we had when we die.

This is actually very scientific, and I think it makes good sense. For how many thousands of years have priests watched people die, hearing their desires, and tried to prepare people for that moment?

I will say, that the doctor that told this story, made a point to say "everyone" acted like this. So it wasn't just the Christians falling back on their religious fear. When we check out of this game, we want to be good people.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:39 am 
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Good for you, SPG. Believe whatever you want. But your sloppy use of language and concepts and your lack of interest in actually researching any of the subjects you opine on makes you, to use a DrW word, ridiculous.

You can go on mangling the terms and the concepts and redefine everything in sight but to what purpose? I guess to have something to say. It looks to me like you are unable to recognize that others have already studied the subjects you refer to and have come up with a lot of answers and even quite a bit of evidence for various propositions. But you would rather stay in the gray areas where pseudoscience and cults thrive, Your choice. :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:51 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Good for you, SPG. Believe whatever you want.


Wow, you make this sound like a sin. Of course I'll believe whatever I want, and so will you.

Even though you claim to be "smarter than religion" you actually carry one their most annoying traits. And that is thinking that you understand things so much better then everyone else. I'll think whatever I want, because that is what people do, but I am being far more scientific by maintaining a sense of question on issues we really don't know about.

You are more self-righteous then the TBM's I've run into on these forum. Even though you think you know, you don't. What you believe is no more valid than what I believe. That you think so, is just the spirit that forms cults filled with people that "know the truth" and cursed be anyone that thinks different.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
But your sloppy use of language and concepts and your lack of interest in actually researching any of the subjects you opine on makes you, to use a DrW word, ridiculous.


To add to my rant:

The idea of "being right" is made of the same material of the idea of a "triangle" but with many more facets. When consciousness imagines a triangle, that idea will have certain effects depending upon the consciousness that holds it. When a person thinks they are right, it has so many different effects, depending upon the configuration of consciousness. You and I both have some version of this idea of "being right." But how you use it really isn't different then some rabid terrorist determined to destroy anyone that doesn't agree with him.

The world of forms is infinite and how humans manifest the different forms is both scientific and an art. But seriously, the idea of marriage is just valid as a triangle. It has a function, that if done properly can have wonderful benefits. If done wrong can be a disaster. Even the idea of an electrical switch is very simple in the world of forms, but can be very difficult to manifest. To manifest of an electrical switch can be infinitely complex, depending upon your needs.

I might be sloppy in my terms, but your soul is dead in terms of imagination. (Note how sloppy I am, because you are not actually dead.) But seriously, dude, stop being a Debby Downer.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:07 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Good for you, SPG. Believe whatever you want.


Wow, you make this sound like a sin. Of course I'll believe whatever I want, and so will you.

Even though you claim to be "smarter than religion" you actually carry one their most annoying traits. And that is thinking that you understand things so much better then everyone else. I'll think whatever I want, because that is what people do, but I am being far more scientific by maintaining a sense of question on issues we really don't know about.

You are more self-righteous then the TBM's I've run into on these forum. Even though you think you know, you don't. What you believe is no more valid than what I believe. That you think so, is just the spirit that forms cults filled with people that "know the truth" and cursed be anyone that thinks different.


I'm not surprised that you don't like what I have to say. It means that you're finally paying attention. That's another point in your favor. Now tell us again how pseudoscience and mysticism trump modern empirical science because you think the universe is run like a politically correct department of fools.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:11 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
But your sloppy use of language and concepts and your lack of interest in actually researching any of the subjects you opine on makes you, to use a DrW word, ridiculous.


To add to my rant:

The idea of "being right" is made of the same material of the idea of a "triangle" but with many more facets. When consciousness imagines a triangle, that idea will have certain effects depending upon the consciousness that holds it. When a person thinks they are right, it has so many different effects, depending upon the configuration of consciousness. You and I both have some version of this idea of "being right." But how you use it really isn't different then some rabid terrorist determined to destroy anyone that doesn't agree with him.

The world of forms is infinite and how humans manifest the different forms is both scientific and an art. But seriously, the idea of marriage is just valid as a triangle. It has a function, that if done properly can have wonderful benefits. If done wrong can be a disaster. Even the idea of an electrical switch is very simple in the world of forms, but can be very difficult to manifest. To manifest of an electrical switch can be infinitely complex, depending upon your needs.

I might be sloppy in my terms, but your soul is dead in terms of imagination. (Note how sloppy I am, because you are not actually dead.) But seriously, dude, stop being a Debby Downer.


There's no shortage of imagination in the world. And in many places it's applied productively. In other places it's a form of cultural delirium that derails progress.

The internet is full of channeled texts from people who all had their conduits to the divine, the astral, the mystical, and come back to us with denigrations of science and history, demanding that we substitute their own texts and theories. You aren't offering anything new or enlightening, but a lot that is nonsensical and subjective. That may be a great realm for poetry and art, so I would encourage you in that direction rather than debates over science.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:58 pm 
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SPG wrote:
But seriously, dude, stop being a Debby Downer.

Only a downer to you, apparently. I find Maksutov's (and by extension, DrW's) logic refreshing and meaningful.
Maksutov wrote:
You aren't offering anything new or enlightening, but a lot that is nonsensical and subjective. That may be a great realm for poetry and art, so I would encourage you in that direction rather than debates over science.

Thank you for saying that. The pseudo-science was really getting ridiculous, and the casual re-defining of terms based on whatever whimsy strikes the soul is just irritating. How do you have a conversation with someone who objects to standard definitions of words by saying, "you don't own that word"??


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
I'm not surprised that you don't like what I have to say. It means that you're finally paying attention. That's another point in your favor. Now tell us again how pseudoscience and mysticism trump modern empirical science because you think the universe is run like a politically correct department of fools.


Is that how you read that, as me paying attention?

I never implied mysticism and pseudoscience "trumps" empirical science, merely argued that it has its place in reality.

The truth of the mechanical wonders of the universe are simply too complex to understand. I mean, take for example the new I7-7700 chip humans have created. I mean, I know that perhaps a couple of people might understand how to make it, but basically it takes a group of humans applying some of our most advanced technology to make. Even if I took, say the top 100 engineers of that built that chip and dropped on them Mars, I bet they couldn't build a new one in their lifetimes. Yet, even as cool as that chip is, it doesn't compare to the human brain.

Within every human is the technology to rebuild another human, (give or take a couple of parts.)

But what created us? We talk of evolution as if it is just this dead thing that is happening, all accidental like. How many times has a person claimed that they had a vision of some sort that came true? So our scientists say, "ok, put them in a double blind study and see if they can predict the lottery numbers." Of course, nothing, so "pre-cognition is false, because we cannot reproduce it in a controlled environment. Yet, in another breath, we admit that when trying to observe photons that the photons will choose an unexpected path. Academic science admits, by observing the universe, we change it. But, even though there are hundreds of thousands of accounts of pre-cognition, science poo-poos it. Buddha said that life was an illusion 2500 years ago, now Morgan Freeman hints at it on "into the wormhole."

My truth is, when it comes to the science of consciousness, all things are possible. A triangle is a simple mathematical idea. It's not a real thing, its a theory, or concept. Yes, consciousness has embraced this simple idea and used it in countless ways. That same is with marriage. Marriage isn't a real thing, but when consciousness embraces that idea, that idea shapes the reality of that consciousness that embraces it. This is truth with any idea. Even a rock really isn't a rock, we just apply the idea of rock to it. If we got into the technical aspects of what a rock is, we really couldn't call it a rock, because it's a clump of atoms, vibrating at as specific pace, having decayed in energy from their birth, etc.

Everything people want to call facts, are just accepted ideas. A physical triangle ISN'T really a triangle. It's something that we all agree meets many aspects of a triangle, but it is impossible to make a perfect triangle. So everything we claim as "fact" is really pseudo-fact.

If you picked up the phone and called your mom, the world would agree that you communicated with your mom. But if you mom called you and said, "I just felt like something was wrong, so I called" the world would call her crazy. Mother's intuition hasn't passed any science validated studies, so obviously cannot be called a real thing. But, a huge part of the world will agree that it is a real thing. That is pseudo-science and I think it has a validate place at the table of reality.

Oddly, I really do consider myself more scientific than any I have met here. I know enough to know that I know nothing. I question everything, but I also realize the benefit of believing. I actually crunch numbers for studies on drugs for a living. I do understand what science is. And I also understand that what people believe, has a massive effect on how the world reacts to them. Years ago, a warrior might go into battle because of his lucky rabbit's foot, believing it would keep him safe. I bet my lunch money, that if we could do a study on warriors that had lucky rabbits feet, they survived longer than those that didn't. Faith is incredibly powerful.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:25 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Oddly, I really do consider myself more scientific than any I have met here.

Really?

Perhaps you have not yet met that many of us here.

Perhaps you have an extraordinarily (and unjustifiably) high opinion of yourself when it comes to scientific understanding.

Or perhaps your don't have a clue what you are talking about and would therefore be simply incapable of determining whether someone you met here were "more scientific" than you, or not.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Thank you for saying that. The pseudo-science was really getting ridiculous, and the casual re-defining of terms based on whatever whimsy strikes the soul is just irritating. How do you have a conversation with someone who objects to standard definitions of words by saying, "you don't own that word"??


When I say, "You don't own that word" I have a good reason.

For years, different groups have claimed they had the right to define words like, "marriage, truth, faith, right, wrong" etc. You think you can say "science" and that anything I say doesn't fit.

generic internet definition of science is:
"the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

When I say religion is science, it has a rich history of scholars (mostly called monks) that would dedicate their lives to healing, lifestyle, teaching, community develop, family structure, feel good beliefs, benefits of honor, hope, charity, faith, ad infinitum.

Many atheist type blame religion for holding down people like Copernicus. But that wasn't so much religion as it was politics. Religion had embraced science but figured they knew everything because they had Aristotle. It's a common mistake.

But, you cannot exclude me from the use of the word "science" just because you don't like my political affiliations. There is a tremendous amount of science in religion. People who claim to religion free are not smarter then those that have religion, you guys have proved that.

Religion helped people build traditions, maintain stable family structures, stable communities, etc. And even though some of the structures of politically incorrect, and even emotionally damaging, they did work. As religion fails, families fail. As we try to blend all the communities together, the stress is unbearable. People might live in the same communities, but they don't know their neighbors.

I'm not saying religion has everything right, but I am saying they had a science that in its time was very functional. Now we let the women out of the house, sometimes even give her shoes, and things have never been the same. But, it kept society stable for a time. It will be interesting to see how things go once people get to believe anything they want. I was told last night at a party that there are 58 different genders. I'm not saying that isn't true, but in a plumbing store. . . . male and female get it done. It's even scientific.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:31 pm 
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DrW wrote:
SPG wrote:
Oddly, I really do consider myself more scientific than any I have met here.

Really?

Perhaps you have not yet met that many of us here.

Perhaps you have an extraordinarily (and unjustifiably) high opinion of yourself when it comes to scientific understanding.

Or perhaps your don't have a clue what you are talking about and would therefore be simply incapable of determining whether someone you met here were "more scientific" than you, or not.


This could be true, but it isn't. I have a very humble opinion of myself, albeit a lofty humility.

I do have clues, and I use them. I don't know much, but I have many clues. That many here would dismiss the structure of consciousness, family, community, culture, etc, as unscientific says volumes.

Take for example the awesome cathedrals made in Europe. Granted, that was some cool science. Even spawned a secret society called the Masons that more or less worshiped scientific logic. But what about the social science that got people to build the cathedrals? We can look back and think that perhaps the methods used to build those wonderful buildings was manipulative and perhaps cruel, but it wasn't just random inspiration that build those buildings. It was religion. If someone had said, "Hey, lets build a science lab". . . . . we would never know, because they never did. Not until a lot later.

But that you think that the study of the human psyche, the soul, human desires, human healing ability, family structure, etc, as unscientific, then yeah, you are not very scientific. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. chemistry. The concepts of chemistry don't just apply to elements of nature, they also apply to people, religion, community. Political science is about understanding how people will react to different stimuli. Give people a little anger here, some hope there, confusion over there, etc, and you can predict how the masses move.

But how about a person? Give a person some hope, even false hope, and they move. They try. And trying is 50% of the battle. So please, impress me with your scientific views. Tell me how beliefs have nothing to do with reality, how faith does nothing in society.

I made a new law for myself. "If it has influence, it is real." That might seem very unscientific, but if you are unwilling to assign cause to some invisible object you are going miss a lot what makes the world go around. Like, how many people get up in the morning because they believe God will keep them safe? How many people go on when they want to quit because they think God wants them too?

How can anyone ignore the very real power of belief? It's what makes our world work.

How many people try to be a good father, or good mother, a good teacher, or good anything because they "believe" it will do something for them? There is no scientific proof that being a good person gets you what you want. We do most of what we do because we "believe" something that cannot be scientifically proven. And correlation does not prove causation. Just because many good people succeed, doesn't prove that is how it works, because many good people also fail. We do what we do because we belief. We cannot even prove the sun will come up tomorrow, or that our jobs will be there. But we have faith and we don't even think about it. But a long time ago, humans were afraid to go to watering hole. We developed our systems and put faith in them. And all of it was scientific in some way or another.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:58 pm 
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There is no conflict between science and religion. There is a conflict between bad religion and reality, between fake science and reality. And yes, reality is still an operative concept. There are objective things that can be agreed upon unless one seeks infinitely self regressing solipsism and wants to stagger through a world of shadows, muttering circular statements like a Samuel Beckett character. I have no certainties. I recognize the profound limitations of our sensorium and cognitive apparatus, let alone the organic cultural materials that influence many of our perceptions. We exist in a spatiotemporal context, children of a time and a place, unavoidably.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
There is no conflict between science and religion. There is a conflict between bad religion and reality, between fake science and reality. And yes, reality is still an operative concept. There are objective things that can be agreed upon unless one seeks infinitely self regressing solipsism and wants to stagger through a world of shadows, muttering circular statements like a Samuel Beckett character. I have no certainties. I recognize the profound limitations of our sensorium and cognitive apparatus, let alone the organic cultural materials that influence many of our perceptions. We exist in a spatiotemporal context, children of a time and a place, unavoidably.


See, now I sort of want to agree with you, but for sake of consistency, I won't. "Bad" is a modifier that is hard to argue with. How it is applied is debatable, but you are absolutely right, Bad Religion (excepting the band) is bad.

Where I think you and I get caught up is applying the word. Fake science is just lying, right? I mean, if I claim something to be true, but have not shown evidence of study, or cannot apply it in away way, than I'm just lying. However, sometimes my daughter has bellyaches, (she is 9 and has paresis paralysis). She comes to me sometimes to help the pain go away when all the other meds aren't doing the job. I do a Mr. Miyage (Karate Kid) technique of rubbing my hands together and making them hot, than apply them to her belly. After about 3 minutes, she says thanks and goes away. The other day she asked, "Dad, how does this work?" I said, "Fairy Magic." She smiled, nodded and left it at that.

Now, your average scientific dude would call BS. No way does putting your hands on someone make their pain go away. But. . . . if anyone wants to take the time and actually observe, they will see that it does. Many nursing homes are actually hiring "Healing Touch" specialist to work with their aging residents because. . . . . it actually makes them feel better. If it works, than it works. If we don't understand why, then why should we claim too? Just because we don't understand why touch can help others doesn't mean that it doesn't. Now, these Healing Touch Specialists do not replace doctors, or medication, but they do have an observable benefit, which if you observe, is the application of science.

Why does my technique work on my daughter? There are doctors of psychology who might try to explain it, and they might be right, and they might be wrong. But, it works. Maybe it is purely psychologically, maybe it is fairy magic. Do I really care? Not really. If her believing gives me the ability to heal her, how is that different from when Jesus told people, "because of your faith you are healed?" See where I am going here? I don't accept that Modern American Medicine fully understands the abilities of the human body. Miracles do happen, but what we don't know is why.

I am just blessed to no end that my daughter can come to me with some confidence that I can make her pain go away. I have the best doctors insurance can buy, but sometimes it isn't enough. I'm not neglectful by thinking I can heal her of her disease, but I am also not above allowing her to believe that I can help her. Until the day my magic fails, it works. I would not go to the neighbors and ask for money so I can help their kid. It probably wouldn't work anyway, though I have used the trick on others with some reward.

My point in all of this, pseudo-science isn't completely worthless. Faith is far more powerful than most drugs we can make. By that, I mean, our brain has the most sophisticated pharmacy man can imagine, it can produce almost any conceived combination of chemicals that the body can use. What makes it work the way it does, we really don't understand. But if I touch my child and say "be healed," and the brain takes that as a signal to release all the right chemicals, who am I to deny its possible?


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:09 pm 
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There is no master index of pseudoscience, although there are some clearly mapped and debunked territories.

It's complex. There have been real scientists who have wandered off into pseudoscience, including Newton and Swedenborg, Flammarion, others. Some have careers that mix the two, others move from one position to the other. Over time the sciences have developed consensus in many areas where there was none. The age of data drives research, modeling and now theory as it never did, never could, in the past.

What is pseudoscience and what is real science will sort itself out if one can look beyond the paranormal propaganda industry and its many, many manifestations. It has become so pervasive in our popular culture, and for many is a substitute or successor to religion. As Sagan warned us.

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You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
There is no master index of pseudoscience, although there are some clearly mapped and debunked territories.

It's complex. There have been real scientists who have wandered off into pseudoscience, including Newton and Swedenborg, Flammarion, others. Some have careers that mix the two, others move from one position to the other. Over time the sciences have developed consensus in many areas where there was none. The age of data drives research, modeling and now theory as it never did, never could, in the past.

What is pseudoscience and what is real science will sort itself out if one can look beyond the paranormal propaganda industry and its many, many manifestations. It has become so pervasive in our popular culture, and for many is a substitute or successor to religion. As Sagan warned us.


I agree. We can do more now then ever before.

But, just as of old, modern scientists get into their ruts and don't want to look at other possibility. Consensus, oddly, isn't science. Just because some scientist agree on something doesn't make it whole solution. That is where many modern science supporters lose my respect. One answer is never the whole answer.

The rate of knowledge was doubling every few years and yet, so many people think they must understand how it all works. I am too small, and my life short, to claim I understand everything. I love to learn, but I must also focus on what works for me. If pseudo-science gets the jobs done for me, I'm not so proud as to reject it.


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