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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:32 pm 
God

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Maksutov wrote:

What supernatural phenomena is explained by religion?


Supernatural means pertaining to God. Jesus walking on water.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:41 pm 
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How does religion explain walking on water?

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:53 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I never said that science agrees with religion. I have simply argued that science deals with the natural and religion deals with the supernatural.
SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJpYUxRL_3U

You do like your ad populum argument don't you?

Since a majority of the population believes in God, my position could hardly be considered ad populum. Perhaps you should try appeal to authority.

Better yet, forget the logical fallacies and the youtube woowoo. Simply consider the evidence and apply a bit of logic and reason.

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David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:24 pm 
God
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DrW wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
sjg
?
Being without a clue I tried google. South Jersey Gas was the first suggestion.

Stephen J. Gould - the original proponent of NOMA.


Well that would fit wouldn't it. I have enjoyed reading some of his work though not focusing on noma. What I did read of that struck me as fitting exactly what Maksutov was seeing. Keep peace at the Thanksgiving family dinner table.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:15 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:

Well that would fit wouldn't it. I have enjoyed reading some of his work though not focusing on noma. What I did read of that struck me as fitting exactly what Maksutov was seeing. Keep peace at the Thanksgiving family dinner table.


Found a link to an essay Gould wrote on the subject. http://jbburnett.com/resources/gould_nonoverlapping.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
huckelberry wrote:

Well that would fit wouldn't it. I have enjoyed reading some of his work though not focusing on noma. What I did read of that struck me as fitting exactly what Maksutov was seeing. Keep peace at the Thanksgiving family dinner table.


Found a link to an essay Gould wrote on the subject. http://jbburnett.com/resources/gould_nonoverlapping.pdf


thanks Res Ipsa, I recognize some portions of that article but I do not think I have read the whole previously. It is an enjoyably thought out statement. It is aware that the Noma was not invented by Gould, I was aware of the line of thought some decades earlier.(and I am sure others were aware well before me) It is also aware of some pressures and unresolved relationships between science and religion. That is natural when you think instead of dogmatize. I would not wish to try and maintain Mormonism in the face of scientific pressure. There are sharp conflict points. However thinking may find ways to adjust thinking even in that relationship. Dogmatist may object to that sort of relationship but I do not wish to protect that peculiar sensitivity.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:45 am 
God

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DrW wrote:

Since a majority of the population believes in God, my position could hardly be considered ad populum. Perhaps you should try appeal to authority.

Better yet, forget the logical fallacies and the youtube woowoo. Simply consider the evidence and apply a bit of logic and reason.


Which God? Do we include the Pastafarian one. Depends on what evidence you want to look at. As I said I have no problem with science and no problem with God. I do have plenty of problems with some of the claims of some people in both fields.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:52 am 
God

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DrW wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Dr W, I agree with you that thinking that god did it is an idea that does not explain or understand how anything works and has no place in science. I think it is also so thin that it does not qualify as religion either.

I still hold the view that science and religion are different activities acting in their own purview.

Huckleberry,

Do you mean like non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)?

NOMA has been pretty thoroughly discredited. The problem is that religion (and especially Mormonism) makes affirmative, objective statements that can be scientifically evaluated, or tested, for validity. When so tested, most are falsified.

I agree with you that NOMA has been thoroughly discredited, but I would rather see popular and widespread acceptance of NOMA than widespread and growing rejection of science by religionists simply because they have a growing awareness of the inherent incompatibility between science and religion and simply can't bear the thought of abandoning the latter. There are already too many influential politicians who are convinced of that inherent incompatibility who therefore reject and disparage science on that basis.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:29 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
Which God? Do we include the Pastafarian one.

If you are referring to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM), then you have hit upon what is probably the most sophisticated, and useful, of all man-made deities. When it comes to the wise use of supernatural abilities, it's pretty hard to beat the FSM.

A fairly recent addition to the pantheon, the FSM has been endowed by humankind with powers, characteristics and abilities that virtually assure that Its true religion will not be found self-contradictory or illogical in any way.

Unlike Jehovah / Elohim, FSM has no imagined enemies among humankind. Its Savory Goodness has not exterminated entire populations. Its noodly appendage reach out to all - regardless of race, color, creed, or sexual orientation.

It requires no tithing, sacrifice, or lifetime commitment to arbitrary strictures, and is more than happy to nourish anyone who will partake.

The religion of the FSM is in absolute harmony with science, pretty much by definition.

Nope - seekers of religious truth cannot do much better than the FSM.

I say this in the name of Its Noodly Appendages,

Rahmen.

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David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


Last edited by DrW on Tue May 02, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Maybe you missed where the over-reliance on faulty peer review in science was discussed.
I don't have a problem with people believing in the FSM God.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:10 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
Maybe you missed where the over-reliance on faulty peer review in science was discussed.
I don't have a problem with people believing in the FSM God.

At least science has peer review. In religion, pretty much any kind of nonsense or evil goes. One's success depends mostly on their powers of persuasion, charm or charisma - not on fact or objective truth.

(And the FSM would prefer to be referred to as a Deity. The term "God" carries far to much baggage.)

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David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:36 pm 
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I don't have a problem if some people want to believe FSM is a deity. by the way the LDS also have a form of peer review. Any doctrine must go before the general membership(peers) to establish it as doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:18 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I don't have a problem if some people want to believe FSM is a deity. by the way the LDS also have a form of peer review. Any doctrine must go before the general membership(peers) to establish it as doctrine.

If you believe that the general membership of the LDS Church constitutes a credible peer group for the senior leadership (apostles and prophets), you might wish to consult a good dictionary. You will find something like this: evaluation of a professional work product by other (independent) professionals in the same field. Unless one is retained as a professional religionist, and paid a salary for services rendered, they can not be reasonably considered as a peer.

by the way, perhaps you could remind me of the last time a proffered doctrine was rejected.

My initial rejection rate as a peer reviewer was something like 20% - 30% and final rejection rate was something like 5% to 10%.

A peer review group that returns a zero percent rejection rate hardly qualifies as such.

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:01 pm 
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DrW wrote:
It requires no tithing, sacrifice, or lifetime commitment to arbitrary strictures
...
Rahmen.

strictures?
=strict structures? --- newest entry in bible dictionary of LDS.org ---

"Lenin freud lived, Lenin freud lives, Lenin freud is to live forever."

rahmen



rahmen?
the english equivalent of rahmenerzählung is "frame story"
Quote:
A frame story (also known as a frame tale or frame narrative) is a literary technique that sometimes serves as a companion piece to a story within a story, whereby an introductory or main narrative is presented, at least in part, for the purpose of setting the stage either for a more emphasized second narrative or for a set of shorter stories.
book of Mormon
maybe...

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Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:00 am 
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DrW wrote:
It requires no tithing, sacrifice, or lifetime commitment to arbitrary strictures
Choyo Chagas wrote:
...
strictures?

rahmen?

___________________________________
stric·ture
ˈstrik(t)SHər/
noun
plural noun: strictures

1. a restriction on a person or activity.
"religious strictures on everyday life"

synonyms: constraint, restriction, limitation, restraint, curb, impediment, barrier, obstacle.
"the strictures on Victorian women"
___________________________________

Rahmen

1. A brand of cheap, pre-packaged, freeze dried noodle. Add boiling water to make an inexpensive hi-carb meal.

2. Term used by faithful Pastafarians, in place of Amen, when acknowledging the noodly goodness of the FSM.
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David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:41 am 
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thank you!


#538 of 750 Hungarian proverbs
A jó pap holtig tanul.
A good priest learns until his death.

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Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:12 am 
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DrW wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I don't have a problem if some people want to believe FSM is a deity. by the way the LDS also have a form of peer review. Any doctrine must go before the general membership(peers) to establish it as doctrine.

If you believe that the general membership of the LDS Church constitutes a credible peer group for the senior leadership (apostles and prophets), you might wish to consult a good dictionary. You will find something like this: evaluation of a professional work product by other (independent) professionals in the same field. Unless one is retained as a professional religionist, and paid a salary for services rendered, they can not be reasonably considered as a peer.

by the way, perhaps you could remind me of the last time a proffered doctrine was rejected.

My initial rejection rate as a peer reviewer was something like 20% - 30% and final rejection rate was something like 5% to 10%.

A peer review group that returns a zero percent rejection rate hardly qualifies as such.


You've never heard of Bruce R. McConkie's ill named "Mormon Doctrine"?

Just found something that might interest you concerning BYU. LDS aren't as antiscience as you like to believe,
SEE https://news.BYU.edu/news/byu-named-one ... nnovations


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:20 am 
God

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DrW wrote:
The CCC wrote:
by the way the LDS also have a form of peer review. Any doctrine must go before the general membership(peers) to establish it as doctrine.

...by the way, perhaps you could remind me of the last time a proffered doctrine was rejected.

TheCCC wrote:
You've never heard of Bruce R. McConkie's ill named "Mormon Doctrine"?

In what way was McConkie's book an example of something subjected to and rejected by an "LDS...form of peer review" as you defined it?
TheCCC wrote:
Any doctrine must go before the general membership(peers) to establish it as doctrine


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:35 pm 
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TheCCC wrote:
You've never heard of Bruce R. McConkie's ill named "Mormon Doctrine"?

McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" was found on a bookshelf in the home of every faithful Latter Day Saint when I was a kid. It was practically considered one of the Standard Works - right along with Talmage's "Jesus the Christ".

From the first edition in 1958, to well into the 80s, McConkie was the "go to" reference for what Mormons were supposed to believe on all kinds of issues.

Then, much like "The Miracle of Forgiveness" that came later, folks began to realize what fundamentalist, dogmatic, intolerant, racist, sexist, and downright ridiculous, content was to be found between the covers.

If you think an essential 30-year process of rejection of a work never presented for ratification or a sustaining vote of the membership by the prophet of the Church is an example of effective peer review then, again, you have an insufficient grip on the subject matter at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:07 pm 
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DrW wrote:
TheCCC wrote:
You've never heard of Bruce R. McConkie's ill named "Mormon Doctrine"?

McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" was found on a bookshelf in the home of every faithful Latter Day Saint when I was a kid. It was practically considered one of the Standard Works - right along with Talmage's "Jesus the Christ".

From the first edition in 1958, to well into the 80s, McConkie was the "go to" reference for what Mormons were supposed to believe on all kinds of issues.

Then, much like "The Miracle of Forgiveness" that came later, folks began to realize what fundamentalist, dogmatic, intolerant, racist, sexist, and downright ridiculous, content was to be found between the covers.

If you think an essential 30-year process of rejection of a work never presented for ratification or a sustaining vote of the membership by the prophet of the Church is an example of effective peer review then, again, you have an insufficient grip on the subject matter at hand.


Great memories, DrW. I converted in 1973, and Mormon Doctrine, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Jesus the Christ were pillars of my new faith. When I encountered Nibley I thought he was quite a BSer, but all my peers oohed and ahhed over him. They also praised Neal Maxwell and Paul Dunn, while I found them superficial. I think some of my admiration of Talmage was that he was an accomplished scientist and defender of evolution. While B.H. Roberts was an earlier generation, he was another giant for me.

Sadly there are nothing of their ilk now. Mormon theology and faithful history are in tatters. Some of the new faithful historians like Bushman and Bradley are engaging with some of the issues, but I see also the tendency to finesse away the problems with romantic reimaginings of Mormonism, a la Teryl Givens. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:28 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
Just found something that might interest you concerning BYU. LDS aren't as antiscience as you like to believe,
SEE https://news.BYU.edu/news/byu-named-one ... nnovations

Not sure why you think that the ability of LDS university faculty and students to make money off of innovation means that the basic tenets of Mormonism are less anti-science.

What it means is that either the faculty and staff involved have a high tolerance for cognitive dissonance, or more likely, they are simply unaware of how diametrically opposed the fundamentals of science are to Mormonism's foundational teachings and scriptures.

For the record, I have worked with (and/or mentored) BYU graduates who went on to commercial success in innovation. Some of them have done quite well for themselves.

In each case, I can tell you for a certainty that these individuals did not believe in the Book of Mormon, and thought that many other aspects of the Mormonism were anything from silly to ridiculous. They remained active for the sake of their families, believing that the LDS environment was good for their children, and for social reasons.

This was in the 1980s and 1990s. Today, some of these individuals, and many more of their children, are no longer active in the LDS Church.

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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