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 Post subject: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:41 pm 
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A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church: Why Young Adults Leave or Never Show Up
April 26, 2017 by Kurt Willems

Both on The Paulcast: A Podcast All About the Apostle Paul and at Pangea Church (Seattle), I have been walking through series on science and scripture.

How I go about that now is quite different than I imagine my methods if I were 19. Back then, evolution was off the table. In fact, it wasn’t even something I gave any thought to until 2008 (mid-20s).

I was a creationist by default.

I had deconstructed (or at least beginning this process):

my understanding of how to interpret Scripture in light of historical context,
my view of women,
the “end times / Revelation,”
the Christian hope (not merely going to heaven, but heaven coming here in new creation),
just war theory (I was on my way to pacifism),
and many other areas.

But creation versus evolution wasn’t on my radar.

And then, quite late to the party, I read Brian McLaren’s “A New Kind of Christian.” The book has a main character who teaches science in a public school. He is both a Christian and holds to biological evolution.

This blew my mind.

Yet, it was the first area of questioning my upbringing in the faith where I wondered: Am I unfaithful to God?

But over time, it became clear: the bible has little value if read as a science book.

Evolutionary creationism is the best option available.

I don’t hold to this view because I have lots of faith in science. My allegiance is in God and Christ.

But, Scripture doesn’t speak to this issue when we read it in light of historical evidence and its genres.

Evolution as biology and the Scriptures can walk hand-in-hand.

But, this is taking time to make its way into the mainstream culture of the North American church. This is especially true in my broad tribe of evangelicalism.

A study that Barna published a few years back states that young adults are leaving the church because of the perceived attitude of the church to science. Here’s what it says:

One of the reasons young adults feel disconnected from church or from faith is the tension they feel between Christianity and science. The most common of the perceptions in this arena is “Christians are too confident they know all the answers” (35%). Three out of ten young adults with a Christian background feel that “churches are out of step with the scientific world we live in” (29%). Another one-quarter embrace the perception that “Christianity is anti-science” (25%). And nearly the same proportion (23%) said they have “been turned off by the creation-versus-evolution debate.” Furthermore, the research shows that many science-minded young Christians are struggling to find ways of staying faithful to their beliefs and to their professional calling in science-related industries.

This posture toward science is and will continue to kill the future of the church.

This is bad news.

And I don’t want my daughter growing up and graduating from her faith when gets to college.

I don’t want to continue to set people up to have to choose between their brains and the back door of the church.

We need a better conversation. We need to listen to the best biblical scholars and Christian leaders. We need to read the crap out of the Biologos website.

We need to shut down this part of church culture. It is killing the church and de-converting young people.

The gospel is too important to defend creation science.

The message of Jesus is too life changing to spend any energy fighting biological evolution.

God created. God loves creation. God died to heal creation.

This creation is approximately 14 billion years old.

Killing the church isn’t worth fighting battles that we were never meant to win.

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Science is absolute total truth without any room for hype or opinion. Approximations are founded in belief and not witnessed accounts.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:12 pm 
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I kind of like listening to this guy.

He notes, like everyone else now-a-days about the decline of interest in religion with rapid growth in the number of atheists. However, he notes there is also a rapid growth of creationists. He declares all out war against creationism.

The OP seems to give some validation to his observation of the growth of creationism.

Here is one example of his knowledge and presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9p3dE5C4_8


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:56 am 
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It is hate and self righteousness in general. Utah, and not just the church, is constantly trying to force the issue of how people should live. But, as mentioned, as the youth leave, they will have to reevaluate their technique. The hypocrisy in general must stop. It's not doctrine, or questionable prophets that is killing the church, its putting down of other people and other beliefs. Some religions can handle that, but eventually Mormons see through it.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:29 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Science is absolute total truth without any room for hype or opinion. Approximations are founded in belief and not witnessed accounts.


At first this comment was just confusing to me. Reconsidering it I see it actually clearly intends to mean something. It confused me at first because it is the exact opposite of what science means to other people. In fact it expresses the very heart of anti science.

rattlesnakes.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:58 pm 
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For Mormons, compartmentalizing science and the LDS religion helps them embrace both without any inevitable matter-antimatter reaction. One encompasses the world in which they live and the other an ideal they would like to exist. That way they can enjoy something pleasing, like when their U.S.S. Enterprise encounters the Voyager Space Probe (from the sciences and philosophies of Man).

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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:35 pm 
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I have no problem with science or God.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:27 pm 
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moksha wrote:
For Mormons, compartmentalizing science and the LDS religion helps them embrace both without any inevitable matter-antimatter reaction. One encompasses the world in which they live and the other an ideal they would like to exist. That way they can enjoy something pleasing, like when their U.S.S. Enterprise encounters the Voyager Space Probe (from the sciences and philosophies of Man).


I'm slowly coming to realize that you are the elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna, while I am just the guy who gets to the bottom and goes back to the top of the slide.

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​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:12 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I have no problem with science or God.

What I would claim that you have no problem with is reconciling your personal beliefs about science with your personal beliefs regarding God. Since one can readily adjust their personal beliefs about both science and God to be mutually compatible, it is easy to understand why so many claim such ability.

Most individuals who have have gained an understanding of science, as opposed to mere belief, would not make such a statement. They also understand that religion and science are diametrically opposed enterprises.

The 'goddidit' hypothesis does not even rate a second thought when evaluated according to the scientific method.

The goddidit hypothesis fails right out of the gate, having:
    - No predictive power
    - No parsimony
    - No supporting evidence
    - and many would claim: No falsifiability

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Dr W, I agree with you that thinking that god did it is an idea that does not explain or understand how anything works and has no place in science. I think it is also so thin that it does not qualify as religion either.

I still hold the view that science and religion are different activities acting in their own purview.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:50 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Dr W, I agree with you that thinking that god did it is an idea that does not explain or understand how anything works and has no place in science. I think it is also so thin that it does not qualify as religion either.

I still hold the view that science and religion are different activities acting in their own purview.

Huckleberry,

Do you mean like non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)?

NOMA has been pretty thoroughly discredited. The problem is that religion (and especially Mormonism) makes affirmative, objective statements that can be scientifically evaluated, or tested, for validity. When so tested, most are falsified.

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:38 pm 
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DrW wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Dr W, I agree with you that thinking that god did it is an idea that does not explain or understand how anything works and has no place in science. I think it is also so thin that it does not qualify as religion either.

I still hold the view that science and religion are different activities acting in their own purview.

Huckleberry,

Do you mean like non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)?

NOMA has been pretty thoroughly discredited. The problem is that religion (and especially Mormonism) makes affirmative, objective statements that can be scientifically evaluated, or tested, for validity. When so tested, most are falsified.


I would mean that when religion make some statement or holds some belief which science learns is wrong people should learn from science. If that requires religion to change some ideas then religions should learn from science and change.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:42 pm 
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DrW wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Dr W, I agree with you that thinking that god did it is an idea that does not explain or understand how anything works and has no place in science. I think it is also so thin that it does not qualify as religion either.

I still hold the view that science and religion are different activities acting in their own purview.

Huckleberry,

Do you mean like non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)?

NOMA has been pretty thoroughly discredited. The problem is that religion (and especially Mormonism) makes affirmative, objective statements that can be scientifically evaluated, or tested, for validity. When so tested, most are falsified.


I always saw NOMA as an a model for intellectual diplomacy, a sort of DMZ of discourse. It seems to be fading along with the memory of SJG.

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You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:52 pm 
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sjg
?

Being without a clue I tried google. South Jersey Gas was the first suggestion.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:08 pm 
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moksha wrote:
For Mormons, compartmentalizing science and the LDS religion helps them embrace both without any inevitable matter-antimatter reaction. One encompasses the world in which they live and the other an ideal they would like to exist.
as i am not Mormon - never was and never will be - the category of LDS religion is empty. In other words no substance.
i am living in a world of science.


moksha wrote:
That way they can enjoy something pleasing, like when their U.S.S. Enterprise encounters the Voyager Space Probe (from the sciences and philosophies of Man).
star trek is one of the very few series - of having more than ten parts - i enjoy.
that v'ger part is one of the best, a pearl of great price.
oops... that expression is booked (even that book is no more scripture)

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Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:43 am 
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DrW wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I have no problem with science or God.

What I would claim that you have no problem with is reconciling your personal beliefs about science with your personal beliefs regarding God. Since one can readily adjust their personal beliefs about both science and God to be mutually compatible, it is easy to understand why so many claim such ability.

Most individuals who have have gained an understanding of science, as opposed to mere belief, would not make such a statement. They also understand that religion and science are diametrically opposed enterprises.

The 'goddidit' hypothesis does not even rate a second thought when evaluated according to the scientific method.

The goddidit hypothesis fails right out of the gate, having:
    - No predictive power
    - No parsimony
    - No supporting evidence
    - and many would claim: No falsifiability


List of scientists who happen to be Christian.
SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... technology


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:30 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
sjg
?
Being without a clue I tried google. South Jersey Gas was the first suggestion.

Stephen J. Gould - the original proponent of NOMA.

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David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:36 am 
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The CCC wrote:
DrW wrote:
The 'goddidit' hypothesis does not even rate a second thought when evaluated according to the scientific method.

The goddidit hypothesis fails right out of the gate, having:
    - No predictive power
    - No parsimony
    - No supporting evidence
    - and many would claim: No falsifiability


List of scientists who happen to be Christian.
SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... technology

CCC,

Seems as though we go through this drill on the board every couple of years. My statement was that most of those with a genuine understanding of science (e.g. professional scientists) would not claim that religion and science are compatible. In other words, most professional scientists do not believe in God.

Below is a graphic from a recent Pew Trust survey contrasting the general public to professional scientists when it comes to belief in God. As you can see, among professional scientists the proportion of atheists is about 10 fold of that among the general public, while the proportion of believers is less than half (33% as compared to 83%).

When one considers biologists only, the proportion of believers is substantially lower still. (Evolution strikes again.)

By the time one gets to the best of the best - the National Academy of Science - last time I checked, believers constituted only about 7% of the membership (and I would imagine that this small minority have their doubts).

Image

Note the significantly greater proportion of scientists (7%) who declined to respond to the questions as compared to the general public (1%). Could it be that these scientists know the truth, but simply don't want to admit that goddidit is a failed hypothesis - even to themselves? Adding all of this 7% to the believers, there is still twice the proportion of believers among the general public as among scientists.

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:37 am 
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I never said that science agrees with religion. I have simply argued that science deals with the natural and religion deals with the supernatural.
SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJpYUxRL_3U

You do like your ad populum argument don't you?


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:10 am 
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The CCC wrote:
I never said that science agrees with religion. I have simply argued that science deals with the natural and religion deals with the supernatural.
SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJpYUxRL_3U

You do like your ad populum argument don't you?


What supernatural phenomena is explained by religion?

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You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


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 Post subject: Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
I always saw NOMA as an a model for intellectual diplomacy, a sort of DMZ of discourse. It seems to be fading along with the memory of SJG.


That's how I've thought of it, too. I never thought of it an accurate description of reality. Rather, I thought of it as a practical framework for approaching science and religion. I think it's a shame that it's fading. I think we need more ways of figuring out how to survive together than we do clubbing each other with big sticks.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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