A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church

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_SPG
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Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church

Post by _SPG »

DrW wrote:Seems as though you were able to more than adequately compensate for your parents' choice of cultural resources in the home.

See, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. Compensate?

A general expectation has arisen that we "owe" our children some sort of debt. So many people don't want to have children now because they don't want to pay the debt. They don't want to be responsible for bring children into a world they cannot control. This expectation makes null and void the love parents might actually have for their children. Like, regardless of how much a parent might love and try to give their children everything they can, there is a group of people ready to judge them as inadequate.

Taking religion out it, leaving only science and facts, truth happens. Every human beings does the best they can, because the science demands it. If a person is aggressive, there is a trail of observable and predictable science that explains why. If a parent is a bad parent, there is a scientific reason why, whether it is based on hormones, bad sun light, poverty, radical extremist teachings, or whatever, it couldn't have been any other way. Everything that happened followed the laws of the universe.

Gratitude is the only righteous perspective. Not to say we don't have other perspective, but nobody owes us anything.
_Maksutov
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Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church

Post by _Maksutov »

Moksha said it best.

............

For Mormons, compartmentalizing science and the LDS religion helps them embrace both without any inevitable matter-antimatter reaction. One encompasses the world in which they live and the other an ideal they would like to exist.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_SPG
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Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church

Post by _SPG »

Maksutov wrote:Moksha said it best.

............

For Mormons, compartmentalizing science and the LDS religion helps them embrace both without any inevitable matter-antimatter reaction. One encompasses the world in which they live and the other an ideal they would like to exist.


I don't see anything wrong with this. I have been trying to say, this is a valid method of dealing with life.

In science, you really cannot do anything in the past or the future, (so far.) We can plan and we can learn, but there is only now.

But, the mind can do also sorts of crazy things that physical bodies obeying the laws of physics can't.

Imagine, 50,000 years ago you sitting around a fire, everyone is still hungry. There is never enough food. You wonder what it would be like to have more food. . . . and you smile. Your friend, huff-fuff-grunt, asks you what you are thinking about. You say, "more food" and he smiles as the thought fills his head. And you make a scientific observation, that if everyone thinks of having more food in their belly, they are more happy. You make a plan. The next morning, before everyone leaves to go hunting, you talk about having full bellies and everyone is happy, full of hope, and enthusiasm. The hunting parties come home with more food that day. It seems that if people are happier, have more hope, and have enthusiasm, they tend to catch more food.

Here is a perfectly scientific reason for religion. After this experience, every night, the hunters gathers around the fire and talk of their adventures. Not because talking about something gives you actual improved statistically odds of getting food, but because it makes people feel better and that has a observable effect on the success of the tribe.

It's not that stories themselves have scientific advantages, because one story or another might have the same effect and they might be lies. You might say that tribal story telling isn't religion, but I say it is. It's the spread of spirit or communal attitude. Warriors that were strong, probably told strong stories. Granted, modern warriors are sworn to silence, but many of them probably take medication for the depression.

If it has influence, it is real. Ultimately, the greatest signal of existence is if something is influenced by said-object/abstract thing. Just because you choose not to be influenced by unicorns, doesn't mean that other people are not influenced by them. If someone shoots you because stepped on her imaginary unicorn . . . . you still shot. It happened.

I understand that some think I'm crazy, but if you play the odds, I have the same chance of being right as you do.
_Lemmie
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Re: A Hatred of Science is Killing the Church

Post by _Lemmie »

DrW wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Too bad. When I was young my father took a similar path, only replacing religion for realism. I was very frustrated by that as I got older, thinking how much I had trusted him to teach me, only to find out his "knowledge" was not accurate or complete. I felt a great sense of betrayal and I regretted the wasted opportunities.

Lemmie,

Seems as though you were able to more than adequately compensate for your parents' choice of cultural resources in the home. Here's betting that the teenage son you mentioned did not have the same experience growing up as you did in this regard. The point you bring up is an important one, though. Parents are primarily responsible for the early education of their children. The time window is short and there is much to learn.

When our kids were still at home, our dinner table conversation very often centered on what they had learned that day, or what they might be curious about, or to see who could answer dad's questions.

It became well known (for good or evil) among their friends at church and school that if you happened to end up at our house for a meal, you might be invited to describe what you were studying in school, or to ask questions of the other kids about things you learned at school to see if you could stump them.

The kids no doubt saw this kind of activity as one of their parents' eccentricities. The youngest two eventually decided that, in order to be better prepared, they would read through our set of encyclopedias together. Not sure how far they got, but they did a lot of reading. In fact, they lugged the entire set, bookcase and all, into their room in order to corner the market, as it were.

Decades later, when this aspect of family history comes up, our grown children often express appreciation for this little family quirk. They can still remember their most difficult questions, and many of the things we all learned from one another. Each one has a different favorite story.

I missed this earlier! Thank you, DrW, I'm doing my best. I really do like the Dinner Table activities you have instilled in your kids. It says a lot that they still bring this up. Lucky kids. :biggrin:
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