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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:19 am 
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I don't know what LittleNipper believes about it, but the LDS believe that all will be given the opportunity to hear then to accept or reject the gospel in this life or the next. You can't be saved or condemned in ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:45 am 
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The CCC wrote:
I don't know what LittleNipper believes about it, but the LDS believe that all will be given the opportunity to hear then to accept or reject the gospel in this life or the next. You can't be saved or condemned in ignorance.

Maybe he will convert. The gospel net gathereth of all kinds, but mostly LittleNipper types. :wink:

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In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:27 am 
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spotlight wrote:
You didn't explain how someone who never heard of Jesus in this life gets saved by accepting a savior they haven't heard about.
I'll raise you :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: and call.


My understanding is that God is present in the life of all human beings and faith and rejection of faith occurs in all of our lives. That faith is not primarily belief in certain religious ideas but our relationship to God in our lives.

It is within this context that I believe the religious ideas Nipper referred to. I think Jesus ongoing presence in the world is separating wheat and chaff.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:40 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
My understanding is that God is present in the life of all human beings and faith and rejection of faith occurs in all of our lives. That faith is not primarily belief in certain religious ideas but our relationship to God in our lives.

It is within this context that I believe the religious ideas Nipper referred to. I think Jesus ongoing presence in the world is separating wheat and chaff.

We get our sense of right and wrong from our nature as social beings. You are merely asserting this is due to a god and defining faith as being a fan of the good. Such qualities can also be found and seen in other social animals besides humans.
For LittleNipper the problem is more acute since he believes in the New Testament literally. If we could all be saved without knowing about a savior named Jesus then why send out missionaries into all the world to carry the good news?

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:43 am 
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spotlight wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I don't know what LittleNipper believes about it, but the LDS believe that all will be given the opportunity to hear then to accept or reject the gospel in this life or the next. You can't be saved or condemned in ignorance.

Maybe he will convert. The gospel net gathereth of all kinds, but mostly LittleNipper types. :wink:


Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Fortunately that isn't my call to say one way or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:45 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
My understanding is that God is present in the life of all human beings and faith and rejection of faith occurs in all of our lives. That faith is not primarily belief in certain religious ideas but our relationship to God in our lives.

It is within this context that I believe the religious ideas Nipper referred to. I think Jesus ongoing presence in the world is separating wheat and chaff.

We get our sense of right and wrong from our nature as social beings. You are merely asserting this is due to a god and defining faith as being a fan of the good. Such qualities can also be found and seen in other social animals besides humans.
For LittleNipper the problem is more acute since he believes in the New Testament literally. If we could all be saved without knowing about a savior named Jesus then why send out missionaries into all the world to carry the good news?


"from our nature as social beings"
I would prefer to say we get it within the process of living as social beings. There is a flexibility in what is possible, as human history shows.

We share a lot with other animals including the same God. I do not see our being a part of a community of beings including animals creates any problem for my view.

What is more important to me and I took as implied by Nippers good description, is that in the larger picture what each of us actually are is shared with the rest of the community. As science culture knowledge is something we receive and then participate in so is our moral faith hope and charity. Because we as human,as do other animals, have the potential of brutalizing our possiblities and are deeply entangled with that already Christian hope of salvation is aimed at completely overcoming this not simply getting a merit badge at death for being better than average. That Christian hope is centered upon sharing a dimension of life with Jesus and his sacrifice so that by our living being changed with that sacrifice being ingested we slowly improve the life of all . (leaven the whole loaf)

Yes I have noticed that it is slow and there are backcurrents. On the other hand the whole of human experience is large and it is not complete.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:35 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:

"from our nature as social beings"
I would prefer to say we get it within the process of living as social beings. There is a flexibility in what is possible, as human history shows.

We share a lot with other animals including the same God. I do not see our being a part of a community of beings including animals creates any problem for my view.

What is more important to me and I took as implied by Nippers good description, is that in the larger picture what each of us actually are is shared with the rest of the community. As science culture knowledge is something we receive and then participate in so is our moral faith hope and charity. Because we as human,as do other animals, have the potential of brutalizing our possiblities and are deeply entangled with that already Christian hope of salvation is aimed at completely overcoming this not simply getting a merit badge at death for being better than average. That Christian hope is centered upon sharing a dimension of life with Jesus and his sacrifice so that by our living being changed with that sacrifice being ingested we slowly improve the life of all . (leaven the whole loaf)

Yes I have noticed that it is slow and there are backcurrents. On the other hand the whole of human experience is large and it is not complete.


Yeah well I'm sure our progress as a species is due to Odin rather than Jesus. :ugeek:

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:49 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I hope this points you in the correct direction... :ugeek:

You didn't explain how someone who never heard of Jesus in this life gets saved by accepting a savior they haven't heard about.
I'll raise you :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: and call.


If one seeks GOD he will find Him. God sent Philip to the eunuch and he (the eunuch) was praying for Biblical understanding.


Last edited by LittleNipper on Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:12 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
If one seeks GOD he will find Him. God sent Philip to the eunuch and he saw was praying for understanding.

There are areas where no one existed with the Christian tradition/story to share it with another. Take America for example pre-Columbus.

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:41 pm 
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spotlight wrote:

Yeah well I'm sure our progress as a species is due to Odin rather than Jesus. :ugeek:


spotlight, wondering what you have in mind here. (returning after my first reaction of whatever)

A quibble over the name as apposed to the faith hope and charity?
Any name but what Nipper is pushing?
A nod to the large role in human progress made by war piracy and mayhem?
Or perhaps an image of wandering searcher for knowledge?

I was thinking of Jesus as a corrective addition to the other positive efforts of living. Never Jesus instead of the rest of living (such as learning,work, friendship,music, fly fishing, sports etc etc)


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:02 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:

spotlight, wondering what you have in mind here. (returning after my first reaction of whatever)

A quibble over the name as apposed to the faith hope and charity?
Any name but what Nipper is pushing?
A nod to the large role in human progress made by war piracy and mayhem?
Or perhaps an image of wandering searcher for knowledge?

I was thinking of Jesus as a corrective addition to the other positive efforts of living. Never Jesus instead of the rest of living (such as learning,work, friendship,music, fly fishing, sports etc etc)

Just a bit weary of the necessity some see for the excess baggage of a god figure is all.

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:03 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
If one seeks GOD he will find Him. God sent Philip to the eunuch and he (the eunuch) saw was praying for understanding.

There are areas where no one existed with the Christian tradition/story to share it with another. Take America for example pre-Columbus.
We don't know that. A ship blown off course, a native praying for help may have had a vision from God. Salvation is a personal thing between man and the Lord. The Lord looks on the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Here is how I see it, in short.

The only thing "infinite" I can think of is "nothing." By that, I mean the void surrounding the universe. If you travel in our universe in one direction, at some point you would suddenly be coming from the opposite direction. Our universe is not infinite, it has a size, weight, and mass.

Even if you counted all of the multiverse possibilities, there would be finite mass of all of the universes.

The only infinite thing is the void. And God can exist in the Void, as mentioned in the Book of Genesis, God moved in the deep before the foundations of the world. But how can God exist in nothingness? Because God is laws, rules, principles, that somehow create all that is, even without matter, energy, life, etc. How?

There are two basic forms or aspects to all things. There is the mathematical truth of something, it weights, mass, inertia, charge, etc. And there is the experiential influence of a thing. Like how does it influence and effect other things.

These aspects are like the Father (Truth) and Mother (Experiential) of existence. The Father is also eternal, and cannot change. The mother however, is conscious and choose to observe or ignore the truth.

When the Mother fully observes the father, there is nothing, for to experience infinity and eternity is to have no form. But when she ignores part of the truth, form happens. This is part of why the female committing sins shows up in our legends, it is part of the story.

Christ, is the spirit of respect, also the form created by the mother. As form happens, even on levels we think unconscious, a type of respect and cooperation happens. Where there is respect, there is functionality. Where there is a disrespect, consciousness seeks to rebel. Thus the Anti-Christ is sort of the Rebel. Not that the rebel has to be wrong, but he always brings destruction.

But essentially, the Universe is built upon consciousness, using techniques of respect, love, and cooperation. Even enemies can respect each, fighting against each other, yet supporting the same cause.

How can Christ return to earth? We think we are individuals, but we are like little ants on a living mountain. Life itself is conscious. The human race has a swarm consciousness, sometimes manifested in mass hysteria. But we are connected. There is "someone" living deeper down inside of us, in our subconscious, who could in moment decide to respect each other. But our fighting, our conflicts, help us grow, help "it" grow.

Mutual respect could suddenly one day rest upon on the world, because that inner voice decides it time. The "deep sleep" God caused to come over man has never been explained away. We have evidence of past achievements that we don't understand.

That is my theory.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:18 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
If one seeks GOD he will find Him. God sent Philip to the eunuch and he (the eunuch) saw was praying for understanding.

spotlight wrote:
There are areas where no one existed with the Christian tradition/story to share it with another. Take America for example pre-Columbus.

LittleNipper wrote:
We don't know that. A ship blown off course, a native praying for help may have had a vision from God. Salvation is a personal thing between man and the Lord. The Lord looks on the heart.

Roman's 10:14 disagrees with you. You are not being Biblical. You are denying your Bible. :surprised:

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:45 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
If one seeks GOD he will find Him. God sent Philip to the eunuch and he (the eunuch) saw was praying for understanding.

spotlight wrote:
There are areas where no one existed with the Christian tradition/story to share it with another. Take America for example pre-Columbus.

LittleNipper wrote:
We don't know that. A ship blown off course, a native praying for help may have had a vision from God. Salvation is a personal thing between man and the Lord. The Lord looks on the heart.

Roman's 10:14 disagrees with you. You are not being Biblical. You are denying your Bible. :surprised:

16 But everyone hasn’t obeyed the good news. As Isaiah says, Lord, who has had faith in our message?

17 So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message.

18 But I ask you, didn’t they hear it? Definitely! Their voice has gone out into the entire earth, and their message has gone out to the corners of the inhabited world.

19 But I ask you again, didn’t Israel understand? First, Moses says, I will make you jealous of those who aren’t a people, of a people without understanding.

20 And Isaiah even dares to say, I was found by those who didn’t look for Me; I revealed Myself to those who didn’t ask for Me.

21 But He says about Israel, All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.


You need to read further! :ugeek:


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:05 am 
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"you need to read further"
the statement in Romans which Spotlight quoted is an introductory consideration in a discussion that continues well past Nippers quotes as well. One could wish that much more of Christiandom read the whole instead of the fragment. Much better relations to Jews would have been established. That would have been a better foundation for thinking about relating to other outside groups.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:46 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
16 But everyone hasn’t obeyed the good news. As Isaiah says, Lord, who has had faith in our message?

17 So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message.

18 But I ask you, didn’t they hear it? Definitely! Their voice has gone out into the entire earth, and their message has gone out to the corners of the inhabited world.

Which just underscores the fact that the god of the Bible didn't even know about the American continent or the Australian continent, etc.


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19 But I ask you again, didn’t Israel understand? First, Moses says, I will make you jealous of those who aren’t a people, of a people without understanding.

20 And Isaiah even dares to say, I was found by those who didn’t look for Me; I revealed Myself to those who didn’t ask for Me.

21 But He says about Israel, All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.

Most understand this to refer to the gentiles which were preached to by Paul and others. So they did not discover Jesus on their own without someone to articulate the doctrine to them.


Quote:
You need to read further! :ugeek:

Says the minion that only reads from one book.

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:24 am 
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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
16 But everyone hasn’t obeyed the good news. As Isaiah says, Lord, who has had faith in our message?

17 So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message.

18 But I ask you, didn’t they hear it? Definitely! Their voice has gone out into the entire earth, and their message has gone out to the corners of the inhabited world.

Which just underscores the fact that the god of the Bible didn't even know about the American continent or the Australian continent, etc.


Quote:
19 But I ask you again, didn’t Israel understand? First, Moses says, I will make you jealous of those who aren’t a people, of a people without understanding.

20 And Isaiah even dares to say, I was found by those who didn’t look for Me; I revealed Myself to those who didn’t ask for Me.

21 But He says about Israel, All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.

Most understand this to refer to the gentiles which were preached to by Paul and others. So they did not discover Jesus on their own without someone to articulate the doctrine to them.


Quote:
You need to read further! :ugeek:

Says the minion that only reads from one book.

Total nonsense! God knows everything! And if God sent an angel to someone praying in the wilderness, or if God caused a fishing boat or two or three with Christians on board to be blown off course, then that is how the Good News was spread. The Roman Empire controlled the roads as well as the sailing lanes. You simply give GOD no credit at all!


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:54 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Total nonsense! God knows everything! And if God sent an angel to someone praying in the wilderness, or if God caused a fishing boat or two or three with Christians on board to be blown off course, then that is how the Good News was spread. The Roman Empire controlled the roads as well as the sailing lanes. You simply give GOD no credit at all!

Sorry little niptuck, but the same argument that disproves the arrival of father Lehi & company disproves your unevidenced claim as well. There has been no introduction of DNA to the Americas from the time period necessary. There are no Christian gods recorded in the Americas. There are quite a number of other gods on record however. They even had a 13 day week. Seems a bit odd does it not that a group that descended from Adam & Eve would lose track of the seven day week. Where did the variation in DNA come from with one mating pair, Adam & Eve 6,000 years ago? Why do we share identical ERVs in identical locations in our DNA with other apes? Total nonsense? Yeah I'm afraid that's what your position has turned out to be.

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Bring back the lions, the Romans weren't stupid.
In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:17 pm 
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What would a Christian God artifact look like in a Mesoamerican context?


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus the Creator of everything
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:15 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
What would a Christian God artifact look like in a Mesoamerican context?

Take your pick.
Or is the Christian god simply the missing god that they believed in but left no record of similar to their missing DNA? :rolleyes:

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In my mind science could make great leaps forward if it can just get over this nonsense about observed things. - Franktalk
I say there is no such thing as a biological creature. - Franktalk
In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature. - Franktalk


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