bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

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_ClarkGoble
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _ClarkGoble »

Would you have a problem if the motto was "kill the Mormon, save the man"? Would you be OK with the parent making the choice if they were going to be denied food for their families unless they sent their child away to be re-educated and made to be ashamed of Mormonism? Do you have any problem with the fact that Indians were made citizens of the United States and the states their reservations were located in but the state of Utah refused to use any funding to build schools on reservations? The Indians were without representation because they were denied the right to vote as long as they lived on reservations.


As I've already said, I find coercion wrong and worthy of condemnation. I think American treatment of native peoples has been atrocious. All Americans deserve equal protection and service under the law.
_tapirrider
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _tapirrider »

ClarkGoble wrote:
As I've already said, I find coercion wrong and worthy of condemnation. I think American treatment of native peoples has been atrocious. All Americans deserve equal protection and service under the law.


The citizenship of American Indians was a forced collective naturalization against the choice of many Indians who did not want it. Too many people think of the United States as a federal government and state governments without realizing or giving thought to the fact that the American Indians are also sovereign nations with governments of their own. States try to intrude on that at times and the federal has limited Indians to a dependent sovereignty. So when you say all Americans, where does that fit in the reality of American Indians? Yes, they are citizens if that is what you mean by all Americans but there are also other rights too that the US fails to respect.

I understand that you are opposed to coercion but I guess I just don't understand where you are coming from about choice. American Indians aren't free to make the same choices that others take for granted. You made a comment about reservations as if Indians would be better off to leave them. My point is that the education of the youth needs to be done in their own communities, administered and governed by their own people. That was not the case in the past. Where it happens now, tremendous successes are going on that the news media rarely covers.
_Maksutov
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Maksutov »

tapirrider wrote:bofmormongeography, please answer this question about the bow and arrow.


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_ClarkGoble
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _ClarkGoble »

tapirrider wrote:So when you say all Americans, where does that fit in the reality of American Indians? Yes, they are citizens if that is what you mean by all Americans but there are also other rights too that the US fails to respect.


I think that they are citizens with the associated rights that come with citizenship. To the degree the United States has made treaties with them I think the government ought respect those treaties. Not sure what else you want me to say. The government often doesn't respect the rights of its citizens the way it should. I could list a litany of examples from the past few years but what would be the point? I condemn such abuses and wish the government followed the constitution and passed laws/treaties. Unfortunately in a democracy I can't make them do so beyond voting.

You made a comment about reservations as if Indians would be better off to leave them. My point is that the education of the youth needs to be done in their own communities, administered and governed by their own people. That was not the case in the past. Where it happens now, tremendous successes are going on that the news media rarely covers.


I'm sure there are some. By and large I think making mobility easy for all people is something the government should aid. There's reasonable economic evidence that moving out of areas of poverty can have a huge effect on a person's opportunities. But again I'd never want to force people to move. I think choice always has to be respected.
_tapirrider
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _tapirrider »

ClarkGoble wrote:I think that they are citizens with the associated rights that come with citizenship. To the degree the United States has made treaties with them I think the government ought respect those treaties. Not sure what else you want me to say. The government often doesn't respect the rights of its citizens the way it should. I could list a litany of examples from the past few years but what would be the point? I condemn such abuses and wish the government followed the constitution and passed laws/treaties. Unfortunately in a democracy I can't make them do so beyond voting.


The United States made and makes treaties with foreign nations. The Indian treaties still in force are treaties with non-US nations. Give that one some thought. My point is that you make good talk about the US needing to take care of its citizens, while I pointed out that citizenship of Indians was forced on them. Meanwhile, they are still the nations that they were when the treaties were made. What is your take on that? The idea of non-US nations, i.e. foreign nations in the boundaries of the US is often difficult for people to grasp. They are not treated like any other nations, the US limits them, forcing a dependency on the US. So the rights of US citizens that you are speaking about isn't getting to the entire situation. International rights come closer to the circumstances as they now stand today. This fact is often made more difficult for LDS members because of the Book of Mormon, where the teachings of "nursing fathers" seems to endorse the idea of dependent sovereignty.


ClarkGoble wrote:I'm sure there are some. By and large I think making mobility easy for all people is something the government should aid. There's reasonable economic evidence that moving out of areas of poverty can have a huge effect on a person's opportunities. But again I'd never want to force people to move. I think choice always has to be respected.


When an American Indian "moves out" they forfeit their treaty rights to medical care because it is not mobile. They can only get care at the IHC facility on their own reservations. And they often lose their ties to their own lands. Who will care for their elderly family members that are left behind without loved ones to care for them when the youth leave? A much better solution is for the Indians themselves to have less economic restrictions placed on them by the US government. As sovereign nations, they still cannot engage in trade with other nations without dealing with US interference. And efforts for their own businesses and economic development often have to go through more layers of requirements and restrictions than most US citizens ever have to face.

It is a quite complex situation concerning American Indians. The US Constitution is clear that Congress regulates commerce with Indians but states have tried to override that, imposing state taxation that not only violates the constitution, it violates treaties.

At the heart of all Indian affairs is the basis that the US owns all of the lands and Indians only have a right to occupy those lands as long as the US allows them to. And this comes from the Doctrine of Discovery, the Papal Bulls of the 15th Century that declared that any lands found not inhabited by Christians were free for the taking. That doctrine was incorporated into US law and still impacts Indians today because their independent sovereignty is not acknowledged.

There were efforts to terminate the tribal status of Indians, spearheaded and led by Mormons in government and LDS attorneys. It was a disaster. There were also efforts in the past to relocate Indians from their reservations into cities, the result was not what the US expected or anticipated.

The teachings in the Book of Mormon about American Indians just don't work.
_ClarkGoble
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _ClarkGoble »

tapirrider wrote:When an American Indian "moves out" they forfeit their treaty rights to medical care because it is not mobile. They can only get care at the IHC facility on their own reservations. And they often lose their ties to their own lands. Who will care for their elderly family members that are left behind without loved ones to care for them when the youth leave?


That's largely true of people who live in any area where industry has left and there are no jobs also. And it's a big part of why they don't move. Since many of these people are living in poverty they could get medicaid. However ultimately industry isn't coming to these places for a wide variety of reasons. Even if reservations could enter into trade like you suggest it's unlikely large businesses would come to those areas.
_tapirrider
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _tapirrider »

tapirrider wrote:When an American Indian "moves out" they forfeit their treaty rights to medical care because it is not mobile. They can only get care at the IHC facility on their own reservations. And they often lose their ties to their own lands. Who will care for their elderly family members that are left behind without loved ones to care for them when the youth leave?


ClarkGoble wrote:That's largely true of people who live in any area where industry has left and there are no jobs also. And it's a big part of why they don't move. Since many of these people are living in poverty they could get medicaid. However ultimately industry isn't coming to these places for a wide variety of reasons. Even if reservations could enter into trade like you suggest it's unlikely large businesses would come to those areas.


It isn't the same because American Indians are members of separate nations within the US, unlike regular citizens who choose to live within areas of poverty. The US doesn't make treaties with ethnic minorities, only with other sovereigns. Treaty rights shouldn't be replaced with medicaid and American Indians don't necessarily want large business to "come to those areas". They want the freedom to build their own economies, something which is hindered and even denied.
_moksha
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _moksha »

Quasimodo wrote:This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick).

Are you sure? Looks like it could be a prophetic foretelling of the Master's Tournament at Augusta National.
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_Quasimodo
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Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Quasimodo »

moksha wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick).

Are you sure? Looks like it could be a prophetic foretelling of the Master's Tournament at Augusta National.


You may be right, moksha.
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