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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:36 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
You don't think that's an overreaction?



How much have you read about the LDS Lamanite program specifically and how the American Indians in general were treated by the United States government,especially regarding boarding school programs and programs designed to remove Indian children from their families?

I do not think Lemmie is overreacting at all.

The method of the LDS Indian placement program was to take away children from their families, teach them a new culture and religion, educate them and then send them back into a culture into which they no longer fit. We were not helping these kids or their families, we were driving a wedge between them.


Bad things are done with good intentions. That wasn't the part of I was reacting to. It was the "scam" part. I think the goal was earnestly to train people so they could adapt to the broader world. To the degree there was any force involved of course that's horrific. However often staying on reservations isn't exactly a great life either. Giving people at least the opportunity for a choice isn't a bad thing. The problem was, as you noted, some went beyond merely offering. Choice and respect for parents always has to be part of any program. Yet giving people more of a chance for a better life is something we ought be offering to anyone living in locations of poverty in the United States.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:18 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
Yet giving people more of a chance for a better life is something we ought be offering to anyone living in locations of poverty in the United States.


How about this?

We will take Mormon kids and make sure they get into any ivy league school they want with full tuition paid, give them any thing they want in the way of material needs like cars, clothing, food, make sure they have the best medical doctors and available to them if needed, We'll teach them a new religion and show them how to live in a different culture with a lot more opportunities.

You good with that? I mean it will train them to adapt to the broader world, one that is not limited to Mormonism and what ever limitations they face in their current lives.

It was a scam from anyone other that the faithful LDS view. We were doing this with the intention of taking away their identity. Sure there were a lot of other things involved like "better life style" and education, but we were taking away that which made them Indian. We walked into their lives with this racist notion that we could improve their lives by making them white and Mormon.

The problem here Clark is the assumption that poverty levels and living conditions are more important than family and culture. The LDS Indian placement program assumed that they were giving these kids a better life by taking away the life they had. If you read though some of those links I provided you can see we didn't really meet those goals. We certainly didn't meet our own objectives to convert Lamanites to Mormonism and, in the end, we actually we part of the problem that ended up in the passage of a Federal law to prohibit non Indians from having a say in the placement of Indian children.

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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:48 pm 
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The more you examine the relationship between the native Americans and the LDS church, the worse off the LDS church appears.

In 1830 Joseph Smith produces a book which is based on the theory that the native American population are the remnants of a lost branch of Israelite. A book avowedly written to bring these natives back to Christianity. Inherent in this thesis is the belief that native American culture of the 1800s is sub standard, could not have been responsible for the extant archaeological remains and that Christianity is a superior belief than their own religious practices.

Joseph Smith takes several steps to try and convert the American Indians to Mormonism, all of which fail, some of which include receiving a revelation from God which instructs him to send married Mormon men to the Indians to take additional wives.

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Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.


Fast forward to 1850's and Mormon immigrants invading the Great Basin. Upon arrival there they find a thriving Indian population dependent on hunting and fishing for the most part. Within 50 years the native populations have been decimated and driven from their native habitations to reservations by a culture who believe in the Book of Mormon, a book specifically brought forth by God to save the very people being destroyed by the Mormon immigrants.

So now in the 1950's these same Mormons under the guidance of living prophets, feeling sorry for the conditions of these poor Indians having to live on the very reservations they forced them to live on, offer them the chance to improve their children's lives (why bother with the parents after all) by taking them away from that awful reservation and teaching them how to be white and Mormon.

Well at least we can feel better about what we did because it was all done with good intentions and because, dangit, God wants us to save these poor savages from themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:00 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
The standard apologetic view of destruction is to just say the Book of Mormon ought be judged by the standards to which it purports to be. That is an ancient document. Most ancient documents exaggerate military success/loss and say things are totally destroyed when they aren't. In any case if there were others in the land then the Jaredites could have been mixing with them. We know the muelikites coexisted with them for a time without knowing as did the Nephites. To Lamanite mixing, the Nephites didn't know what the Lamanites were doing the first few hundred years. So most likely that would explain populations. Plus of course we don't have the 116 pages and don't know what was written New Testament those.


Asking why the text doesn't mention other groups is judging it by what it purports to be. No one is asking if ancient texts may exaggerate or lie about themselves or other groups. The bible is a classic example of an ancient text which mention other groups all the time, even though we expect some writer will make themselves and their group look good and other groups look bad. The Book of Mormon fails this test miserably from the limited geography model.

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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Bofmormongeography, please tell us about the bow and arrow among the Hopewell culture during the time that it wasn't there.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
...
If you notice, they printed his fleshtones darkly in the first photo and his fleshtones much lighter in the second. He was becoming white and delightsome. :rolleyes:
Image

early photoshop
stalin did it decades before

Image-Image

the ways of Mormon god sometimes are not varying from earthly ones - stalin, Hitler (and ceausescu if i may be more specific)

by the way this book is worth to read
(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Indian Student Placement Service: A History)

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Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:13 am 
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bofmormongeography, please answer this question about the bow and arrow.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:29 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
Yet giving people more of a chance for a better life is something we ought be offering to anyone living in locations of poverty in the United States.


How about this?

We will take Mormon kids and make sure they get into any ivy league school they want with full tuition paid, give them any thing they want in the way of material needs like cars, clothing, food, make sure they have the best medical doctors and available to them if needed, We'll teach them a new religion and show them how to live in a different culture with a lot more opportunities.

You good with that? I mean it will train them to adapt to the broader world, one that is not limited to Mormonism and what ever limitations they face in their current lives.


So long as it was the parents choice I'd have no problem with that.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:40 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
Yet giving people more of a chance for a better life is something we ought be offering to anyone living in locations of poverty in the United States.


Fence Sitter wrote:
How about this?

We will take Mormon kids and make sure they get into any ivy league school they want with full tuition paid, give them any thing they want in the way of material needs like cars, clothing, food, make sure they have the best medical doctors and available to them if needed, We'll teach them a new religion and show them how to live in a different culture with a lot more opportunities.

You good with that? I mean it will train them to adapt to the broader world, one that is not limited to Mormonism and what ever limitations they face in their current lives.


ClarkGoble wrote:
So long as it was the parents choice I'd have no problem with that.


Would you have a problem if the motto was "kill the Mormon, save the man"? Would you be OK with the parent making the choice if they were going to be denied food for their families unless they sent their child away to be re-educated and made to be ashamed of Mormonism? Do you have any problem with the fact that Indians were made citizens of the United States and the states their reservations were located in but the state of Utah refused to use any funding to build schools on reservations? The Indians were without representation because they were denied the right to vote as long as they lived on reservations. This set up the situation where Indian parent's only choice for an education of their child was to send them away. The lawsuit Meyers vs. Board of Education finally got a school built. Utah was keeping federal dollars that were supposed to be for Indian education and using those monies in their own schools while Indian children either had to attend boarding schools or the LDS placement program just to get an education. So what exactly would you have no problem with considering the choices those Indian parents were forced to make? If those very same circumstances were placed on Mormon parents I find it hard to believe that you would not have a problem with that. I would fight for the Mormons in those circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Quote:
Would you have a problem if the motto was "kill the Mormon, save the man"? Would you be OK with the parent making the choice if they were going to be denied food for their families unless they sent their child away to be re-educated and made to be ashamed of Mormonism? Do you have any problem with the fact that Indians were made citizens of the United States and the states their reservations were located in but the state of Utah refused to use any funding to build schools on reservations? The Indians were without representation because they were denied the right to vote as long as they lived on reservations.


As I've already said, I find coercion wrong and worthy of condemnation. I think American treatment of native peoples has been atrocious. All Americans deserve equal protection and service under the law.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:33 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:

As I've already said, I find coercion wrong and worthy of condemnation. I think American treatment of native peoples has been atrocious. All Americans deserve equal protection and service under the law.


The citizenship of American Indians was a forced collective naturalization against the choice of many Indians who did not want it. Too many people think of the United States as a federal government and state governments without realizing or giving thought to the fact that the American Indians are also sovereign nations with governments of their own. States try to intrude on that at times and the federal has limited Indians to a dependent sovereignty. So when you say all Americans, where does that fit in the reality of American Indians? Yes, they are citizens if that is what you mean by all Americans but there are also other rights too that the US fails to respect.

I understand that you are opposed to coercion but I guess I just don't understand where you are coming from about choice. American Indians aren't free to make the same choices that others take for granted. You made a comment about reservations as if Indians would be better off to leave them. My point is that the education of the youth needs to be done in their own communities, administered and governed by their own people. That was not the case in the past. Where it happens now, tremendous successes are going on that the news media rarely covers.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:07 pm 
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tapirrider wrote:
bofmormongeography, please answer this question about the bow and arrow.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:45 pm 
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tapirrider wrote:
So when you say all Americans, where does that fit in the reality of American Indians? Yes, they are citizens if that is what you mean by all Americans but there are also other rights too that the US fails to respect.


I think that they are citizens with the associated rights that come with citizenship. To the degree the United States has made treaties with them I think the government ought respect those treaties. Not sure what else you want me to say. The government often doesn't respect the rights of its citizens the way it should. I could list a litany of examples from the past few years but what would be the point? I condemn such abuses and wish the government followed the constitution and passed laws/treaties. Unfortunately in a democracy I can't make them do so beyond voting.

Quote:
You made a comment about reservations as if Indians would be better off to leave them. My point is that the education of the youth needs to be done in their own communities, administered and governed by their own people. That was not the case in the past. Where it happens now, tremendous successes are going on that the news media rarely covers.


I'm sure there are some. By and large I think making mobility easy for all people is something the government should aid. There's reasonable economic evidence that moving out of areas of poverty can have a huge effect on a person's opportunities. But again I'd never want to force people to move. I think choice always has to be respected.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:50 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
I think that they are citizens with the associated rights that come with citizenship. To the degree the United States has made treaties with them I think the government ought respect those treaties. Not sure what else you want me to say. The government often doesn't respect the rights of its citizens the way it should. I could list a litany of examples from the past few years but what would be the point? I condemn such abuses and wish the government followed the constitution and passed laws/treaties. Unfortunately in a democracy I can't make them do so beyond voting.


The United States made and makes treaties with foreign nations. The Indian treaties still in force are treaties with non-US nations. Give that one some thought. My point is that you make good talk about the US needing to take care of its citizens, while I pointed out that citizenship of Indians was forced on them. Meanwhile, they are still the nations that they were when the treaties were made. What is your take on that? The idea of non-US nations, i.e. foreign nations in the boundaries of the US is often difficult for people to grasp. They are not treated like any other nations, the US limits them, forcing a dependency on the US. So the rights of US citizens that you are speaking about isn't getting to the entire situation. International rights come closer to the circumstances as they now stand today. This fact is often made more difficult for LDS members because of the Book of Mormon, where the teachings of "nursing fathers" seems to endorse the idea of dependent sovereignty.


ClarkGoble wrote:
I'm sure there are some. By and large I think making mobility easy for all people is something the government should aid. There's reasonable economic evidence that moving out of areas of poverty can have a huge effect on a person's opportunities. But again I'd never want to force people to move. I think choice always has to be respected.


When an American Indian "moves out" they forfeit their treaty rights to medical care because it is not mobile. They can only get care at the IHC facility on their own reservations. And they often lose their ties to their own lands. Who will care for their elderly family members that are left behind without loved ones to care for them when the youth leave? A much better solution is for the Indians themselves to have less economic restrictions placed on them by the US government. As sovereign nations, they still cannot engage in trade with other nations without dealing with US interference. And efforts for their own businesses and economic development often have to go through more layers of requirements and restrictions than most US citizens ever have to face.

It is a quite complex situation concerning American Indians. The US Constitution is clear that Congress regulates commerce with Indians but states have tried to override that, imposing state taxation that not only violates the constitution, it violates treaties.

At the heart of all Indian affairs is the basis that the US owns all of the lands and Indians only have a right to occupy those lands as long as the US allows them to. And this comes from the Doctrine of Discovery, the Papal Bulls of the 15th Century that declared that any lands found not inhabited by Christians were free for the taking. That doctrine was incorporated into US law and still impacts Indians today because their independent sovereignty is not acknowledged.

There were efforts to terminate the tribal status of Indians, spearheaded and led by Mormons in government and LDS attorneys. It was a disaster. There were also efforts in the past to relocate Indians from their reservations into cities, the result was not what the US expected or anticipated.

The teachings in the Book of Mormon about American Indians just don't work.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:56 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
When an American Indian "moves out" they forfeit their treaty rights to medical care because it is not mobile. They can only get care at the IHC facility on their own reservations. And they often lose their ties to their own lands. Who will care for their elderly family members that are left behind without loved ones to care for them when the youth leave?


That's largely true of people who live in any area where industry has left and there are no jobs also. And it's a big part of why they don't move. Since many of these people are living in poverty they could get medicaid. However ultimately industry isn't coming to these places for a wide variety of reasons. Even if reservations could enter into trade like you suggest it's unlikely large businesses would come to those areas.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:29 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
When an American Indian "moves out" they forfeit their treaty rights to medical care because it is not mobile. They can only get care at the IHC facility on their own reservations. And they often lose their ties to their own lands. Who will care for their elderly family members that are left behind without loved ones to care for them when the youth leave?


ClarkGoble wrote:
That's largely true of people who live in any area where industry has left and there are no jobs also. And it's a big part of why they don't move. Since many of these people are living in poverty they could get medicaid. However ultimately industry isn't coming to these places for a wide variety of reasons. Even if reservations could enter into trade like you suggest it's unlikely large businesses would come to those areas.


It isn't the same because American Indians are members of separate nations within the US, unlike regular citizens who choose to live within areas of poverty. The US doesn't make treaties with ethnic minorities, only with other sovereigns. Treaty rights shouldn't be replaced with medicaid and American Indians don't necessarily want large business to "come to those areas". They want the freedom to build their own economies, something which is hindered and even denied.


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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:47 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:
This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick).

Are you sure? Looks like it could be a prophetic foretelling of the Master's Tournament at Augusta National.

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 Post subject: Re: bofgeography, the bow and arrow in the BofM?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:52 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:
This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick).

Are you sure? Looks like it could be a prophetic foretelling of the Master's Tournament at Augusta National.


You may be right, moksha.
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