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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:29 pm 
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bomgeography wrote:
Haplo group x which Navajo do have a small percentage of is from the Middle East not the Arctic.

DNA has already established that haplo group x came from the Middle East not Central Asia arctic or Siberia. So unless you believe they took an airplane to North America that is one option the other option is haplo group x sailed to North America as described in the Book of Mormon and the theory and dating that it is older than the Book of Mormon is wrong. Have a nice day.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)


That's kind of a misleading statement. First haplogroup x is mitochondrial DNA. Not nuclear DNA. DNA changes and the development of new haplogroups takes many thousands of years longer in mitochondrial DNA than in nuclear DNA. The X group has been around for a very long time. Long enough to separate into two sub-groups.

X2 didn't need to take a plane ride. It just took a leisurely stroll from the near east to Europe, the Caucasus, Siberia and then over Beringia. Easy Peasy. All of this happened thousands of years before the Levantine people even knew they were Jewish.

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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Actually no it doesn't haplo group x DNA is not found in the Arctic or Siberia. As it's related to native Americans it's not found in Central Asia. Peace.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:31 pm 
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bomgeography wrote:
Haplo group x which Navajo do have a small percentage of is from the Middle East not the Arctic.

DNA has already established that haplo group x came from the Middle East not Central Asia arctic or Siberia. So unless you believe they took an airplane to North America that is one option the other option is haplo group x sailed to North America as described in the Book of Mormon and the theory and dating that it is older than the Book of Mormon is wrong. Have a nice day.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)


DNA has already established that all humans came from Africa, without airplanes and so long ago that the Bible can't even account for it. Does that make the English to be Africans?

Haplogroup X2a is only found in America. It is not in the Middle East and never was. It developed entirely in America, from ancestral X DNA that was in the Middle East 30,000 years ago. The migrations out of the Middle East were not one living family walking, boating or flying to America. It happened slowly over multiple generations spanning vast areas of land mass. Just because there are no living people in the arctic with Haplogroup X does not mean that they were not passing through there some 14,000 years ago. There are so many other corresponding evidences that the simple lack of existing haplogroup x in that region is not even a factor. We have been through all of this already.

I showed you the linguistic distribution of the Navajo language which clearly demonstrates that they came out of the arctic. They were not in the American Southwest during Book of Mormon times. They did not come from the Middle East on a boat 600 BC. They did not fly from the Middle East to the American Southwest. Limiting yourself to the two options you gave me might be convenient for your fantastical claims but it also keeps you outside of the truth.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:33 pm 
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bomgeography wrote:
Actually no it doesn't haplo group x DNA is not found in the Arctic or Siberia. As it's related to native Americans it's not found in Central Asia. Peace.


If you have any understanding of how DNA works, you are twisting to fit your pet theories. You must have realized by now that this sort of bait and switch will not work around here at all.

You should try selling your theories on a more gullible board. You might get more accepting responses.

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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:04 pm 
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bomgeography wrote:
the theory and dating that it is older than the Book of Mormon is wrong.


And thus we see that truth is sacrificed on the altar of fanaticism.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:04 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
bomgeography wrote:
the theory and dating that it is older than the Book of Mormon is wrong.


And thus we see that truth is sacrificed on the altar of fanaticism.


And all he has when the science does not agree with his beliefs is they must be wrong. No reason, just they must be wrong. Funny that they fall all over themselves if they think some scientific knowledge agrees with what they want to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:04 pm 
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bomgeography wrote:
The Navajo do have the Middle East haplo group x DNA gene. Navajo do fit in but I do not know how exactly. It's most likely through Nephite trading outpost and expansion. It's a known fact Hopewell trade extended thousands of miles to the Rocky Mountains see x distribution map.

Haplo group x largest concentrations are in Israel Druze and Native Americans i.e. Not in Asia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#/media/File%3AHaplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG

Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene–speaking Navajo.

McKane, regarding your broken link, have you read the contents of that link recently? Do you feel it still supports your statements?

Also, your last sentence is actually from the abstract of a 1998 article that is not discussed in your wiki link.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:21 pm 
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George P. Lee:

I am proud to declare to you today, brothers and sisters, that I am a descendant of Lehi, Nephi, and all the great Book of Mormon prophets.


==================

He would be a descendant of Lehi - but most likely not Nephi. Laman or Lemuel were the bad guys whose descendants were the initial Lamanites. Later with the mixing and all becoming as one with Jesus - did the Lamanites skin turn White and Delightsome? Only later to go dark again as they got wicked?

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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:59 am 
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SuperDell wrote:
He would be a descendant of Lehi - but most likely not Nephi. Laman or Lemuel were the bad guys whose descendants were the initial Lamanites. Later with the mixing and all becoming as one with Jesus - did the Lamanites skin turn White and Delightsome? Only later to go dark again as they got wicked?


By normal population genetics with even a little diffusion amongst groups there would be descendants of Nephi among all the survivors of the final Nephite wars. But as you note for a period there was massive intermixing of groups with the later grouping most likely being primarily political. Apologists argue that even early on during the main narrative of Mosiah-Helaman that the categories are primarily political.

As to skin, there's a lot of debate as to what that means. I've always thought that it made most sense as ritualistic marking and not the skin itself. While there's not consensus on where the Book of Mormon transpired, if it was in the general mayan region then the painting of bodies black and red is a well attested tradition. This would easily explain how the skin would change. It wasn't the skin proper so much as a cultural marking. Much like you could distinguish the typical EFY kid from a certain subgroups of San Francisco kid by the amount of tattoos and piercings.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:00 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
As to skin, there's a lot of debate as to what that means. I've always thought that it made most sense as ritualistic marking and not the skin itself. While there's not consensus on where the Book of Mormon transpired, if it was in the general mayan region then the painting of bodies black and red is a well attested tradition. This would easily explain how the skin would change. It wasn't the skin proper so much as a cultural marking. Much like you could distinguish the typical EFY kid from a certain subgroups of San Francisco kid by the amount of tattoos and piercings.


Mormon prophet Wilford Woodruff prayed for Indians to turn white when he dedicated the Salt Lake Temple in 1893,

"Restore them we pray Thee, to Thine ancient favor, fulfill in their completeness the promises given to their fathers, and make of them a white and delightsome race, a loved and holy people as in former days."
http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/art ... house.html

And the Mormon prophet George Albert Smith also prayed for their skin color to change when he dedicated the Idaho Falls Temple in 1945.

"O Father, remember Thy promises made unto Thy holy prophets regarding the remnants of those whom Thou didst lead unto this western hemisphere, that they should not be utterly destroyed but that a remnant should be preserved which would turn from their wickedness, repent of their sins, and eventually become a white and delightsome people. May the day speedily come when those promises will be fulfilled."
http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/art ... where.html

They weren't praying for Mayans to stop ritualistically marking their own skin with body paint.

In the October 1960 General Conference, LDS apostle (who later became the prophet) Spencer W. Kimball told the world that the prophecy of Lamanites (American Indians) turning white was being fulfilled.

"For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation."

"At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather."
http://scriptures.BYU.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1091&era=yes

In 1981 the Mormon church changed "white" in 2 Nephi 30:6 to say "a pure and a delightsome people."

For 151 years Mormons believed that American Indians would turn white. Mormon prophets believed it, taught it, prophesied that it would happen, prayed in their temples for it to happen soon and finally announced that prophecy was being fulfilled.

But none of it was real.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:02 pm 
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tapirrider wrote:
Mormon prophet Wilford Woodruff prayed for Indians to turn white when he dedicated the Salt Lake Temple in 1893,


Yes, so? I have no problem with people misinterpreting religious texts and acting on that interpretation with the best of intentions.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:16 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
Yes, so? I have no problem with people misinterpreting religious texts and acting on that interpretation with the best of intentions.


I was taught that temple dedicatory prayers were inspired revelation so if Woodruff was wrong, that is a problem to me. Kimball telling people that Navajo children were turning white was sick. No good intentions can excuse that. There just doesn't seem to be much of anything that was really ever inspired. That's just my take on things. The apologist excuses and reasons given today like skin markings aren't even the same church I grew up in.


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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:31 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
tapirrider wrote:
Mormon prophet Wilford Woodruff prayed for Indians to turn white when he dedicated the Salt Lake Temple in 1893,


Yes, so? I have no problem with people misinterpreting religious texts and acting on that interpretation with the best of intentions.


That's not "people" misinterpreting a religious text. That's a Prophet communing with God.
Of whom much is given, much is expected. Sadly, but unsurprisingly, Mormon Prophets always over promise and under deliver. Especially when it comes to determining what God is saying.

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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:50 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
By normal population genetics with even a little diffusion amongst groups there would be descendants of Nephi among all the survivors of the final Nephite wars.


Something we should have found given how successful these groups were for thousands of years.

Quote:
But as you note for a period there was massive intermixing of groups with the later grouping most likely being primarily political. Apologists argue that even early on during the main narrative of Mosiah-Helaman that the categories are primarily political.


It start's off as a separation of one group into two. One of them is then cursed with a skin of blackness. The text is quite clear it is about skin color, and other sections support this. It's interesting this book comes out at a time when many were suggesting the Indians were a lost tribe of Israel, and one of the questions was about how they would have gotten a darker skin. Joseph's book seems to be answering both questions. It's also interesting that the first group came shortly after Noah's Flood. It is Noah's earth covering flood that created the questions of how people got here after that, and from where they came.

Quote:
As to skin, there's a lot of debate as to what that means. I've always thought that it made most sense as ritualistic marking and not the skin itself. While there's not consensus on where the Book of Mormon transpired, if it was in the general mayan region then the painting of bodies black and red is a well attested tradition. This would easily explain how the skin would change. It wasn't the skin proper so much as a cultural marking. Much like you could distinguish the typical EFY kid from a certain subgroups of San Francisco kid by the amount of tattoos and piercings.


The text is clear that laman's group was cursed with a skin of blackness, and that this curse was handed down to their children. Ritualistic markings don't come close to explaining the text. The text looks like someone in the early 1800's is answering many of the questions of the day, and makes many incorrect assumptions about population growth and what kinds of technology, animals and plants they used. I understand you don't like the fact the text fits so well with it being made up fiction based on the poor ideas of the 1800's.

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 Post subject: Re: bofmgeography, are Navajos Nephites?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:21 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
...
"At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather."
http://scriptures.BYU.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1091&era=yes
...
:idea:
maybe in the background of the scene there were sitting the little member girl's white and delightsome - and biological - father

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0itzW8Siqg - (2:50)

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