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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:42 pm 
God
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SPG wrote:
Maksutov wrote:

Fine for metaphor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy

I prefer less poetry and more truth on the matter. :wink:

Lol. Wow. That sounds bad.

I think that you guys are too scientific. There many aspects of life that are difficult to track scientifically. Extremists might claim there is no such thing as love because it cannot be qualified. Yet, for something that is non existent it seems to make the world go round.

For example you might say that human emotions don't translate to physics. But if I want a rock and pick it up, desire just caused physics. We are, in an absolute sense, star dusk expressing desire and making things happen as we want. We are essentially an asteroid transformed into humans. Who did that? Why?

Because our lives are so short, we cannot see that perhaps some older living process is ar work.


Truth happens. We are here. That you believe that humans understand all of the truth is confusing to me.

Personally, I observe that some hidden intelligence is working with humans and has for a very long time.


Hey, if you live life poetically, artistically, that can be a pretty good life. But someone else is taking care of the pesky materialist details for you so that you have the life style you do. :wink:

What does "too scientific" look like again? Who's complaining?

Hidden intelligence? Hidden indeed. But an interesting proposition. Tell us more.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:03 pm 
Valiant B
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Too scientific is purely mechanical. Scientifically, there isn't any difference between me and a dancer. I am strong, can move about, bob up and down, can spin, but watching would be painful.

That feel good feeling isn't just random. In many ways, it smarter than most humans. Our senses and instincts are tied to billions of years survival experience. Our personality is fresh and new, but stretched over an older structure of experience. Why do we like the golden ratio of 1/3 to 2/3? That's not something that a personality learns on its own but is rather something instinctual that the human race has learned over the many years of survival. Of course there is always the exception of the rule.

The human race is a living being in its own right. Our bodies are a collection of organs and cells that are more or less all individual living creatures. Any cell in our body could be taken off and cloned or grown and some sort of lab. With that cell comes rdna and an unimaginable amount of information that the personality is not aware of.

Within that information is intelligence that can be grown given the right environment. It has Intelligence that it may, given the right environment, grow by itself. In a very real sense all of the intelligence of the human race can be stored in just a few cells of Any Given human. Doesn't scream intelligence of some sort Beyond us?

The Bible claims that God is the Living Truth. The laws of the universe are the truth. It is impossible to break them. DNA forms according to the laws of the universe.

A magnetic field can form metallic filings into a specific shape. The filings obey the laws of magnetism. In this sense an invisible force forms matter. In a very real sense the power that we call God is like this. If you throw a certain amount of material into the air these laws of nature will form life. It may take a long time but it will eventually happen. Just as metallic filings will obey the magnetic field so to all of nature obeys the laws of God.

All of the intelligence that forms in the universe forms out of these laws of nature. The structure of the universe forms them into what they become. Whether God exists is not a question in my mind. Because God is the plan of the laws of the universe that give all things their purpose and motion. I wonder at times if God is conscious or--if it requires particles to have consciousness.

I figured that somehow the Consciousness exists first and that all matter is actually a production of conscious agreement on how to behave. There is no reason for energy or matter to exist without some form of consciousness to create it. We Believe that there is not one universe but perhaps an infinite number of universes. How could this be possible if energy and matter were limited to the concept of a finite amount? Matter and energy must be able to come from someplace that is infinite in its own right. There is only one thing that it can exist in the emptiness of the Void outside of our universe and that is the truth. Where there is no particle or no gas the truth can still exist. Therefore it seems reasonable that the truth is conscious.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:55 pm 
God

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SPG wrote:
Too scientific is purely mechanical. Scientifically, there isn't any difference between me and a dancer. I am strong, can move about, bob up and down, can spin, but watching would be painful.

That feel good feeling isn't just random. In many ways, it smarter than most humans. Our senses and instincts are tied to billions of years survival experience. Our personality is fresh and new, but stretched over an older structure of experience. Why do we like the golden ratio of 1/3 to 2/3? That's not something that a personality learns on its own but is rather something instinctual that the human race has learned over the many years of survival. Of course there is always the exception of the rule.

The human race is a living being in its own right. Our bodies are a collection of organs and cells that are more or less all individual living creatures. Any cell in our body could be taken off and cloned or grown and some sort of lab. With that cell comes rdna and an unimaginable amount of information that the personality is not aware of.

Within that information is intelligence that can be grown given the right environment. It has Intelligence that it may, given the right environment, grow by itself. In a very real sense all of the intelligence of the human race can be stored in just a few cells of Any Given human. Doesn't scream intelligence of some sort Beyond us?

The Bible claims that God is the Living Truth. The laws of the universe are the truth. It is impossible to break them. DNA forms according to the laws of the universe.

A magnetic field can form metallic filings into a specific shape. The filings obey the laws of magnetism. In this sense an invisible force forms matter. In a very real sense the power that we call God is like this. If you throw a certain amount of material into the air these laws of nature will form life. It may take a long time but it will eventually happen. Just as metallic filings will obey the magnetic field so to all of nature obeys the laws of God.

All of the intelligence that forms in the universe forms out of these laws of nature. The structure of the universe forms them into what they become. Whether God exists is not a question in my mind. Because God is the plan of the laws of the universe that give all things their purpose and motion. I wonder at times if God is conscious or--if it requires particles to have consciousness.

I figured that somehow the Consciousness exists first and that all matter is actually a production of conscious agreement on how to behave. There is no reason for energy or matter to exist without some form of consciousness to create it. We Believe that there is not one universe but perhaps an infinite number of universes. How could this be possible if energy and matter were limited to the concept of a finite amount? Matter and energy must be able to come from someplace that is infinite in its own right. There is only one thing that it can exist in the emptiness of the Void outside of our universe and that is the truth. Where there is no particle or no gas the truth can still exist. Therefore it seems reasonable that the truth is conscious.

Oh boy. Looking past the fact that 1/3 to 2/3 is not anywhere near the golden ratio, I'm not really seeing a stable person here. SPG, is it possible your "feel good feeling" is caused by a manic episode?


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:27 pm 
Valiant B
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I admit I misrepresented the golden ratio. I watched a documentary that explained the human face what we find attractive. It said golden ratio and 1/3 and 2/3 I thought that they were related.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:17 pm 
God
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SPG wrote:
Too scientific is purely mechanical. Scientifically, there isn't any difference between me and a dancer. I am strong, can move about, bob up and down, can spin, but watching would be painful.

That feel good feeling isn't just random. In many ways, it smarter than most humans. Our senses and instincts are tied to billions of years survival experience. Our personality is fresh and new, but stretched over an older structure of experience. Why do we like the golden ratio of 1/3 to 2/3? That's not something that a personality learns on its own but is rather something instinctual that the human race has learned over the many years of survival. Of course there is always the exception of the rule.

The human race is a living being in its own right. Our bodies are a collection of organs and cells that are more or less all individual living creatures. Any cell in our body could be taken off and cloned or grown and some sort of lab. With that cell comes rdna and an unimaginable amount of information that the personality is not aware of.

Within that information is intelligence that can be grown given the right environment. It has Intelligence that it may, given the right environment, grow by itself. In a very real sense all of the intelligence of the human race can be stored in just a few cells of Any Given human. Doesn't scream intelligence of some sort Beyond us?

The Bible claims that God is the Living Truth. The laws of the universe are the truth. It is impossible to break them. DNA forms according to the laws of the universe.

A magnetic field can form metallic filings into a specific shape. The filings obey the laws of magnetism. In this sense an invisible force forms matter. In a very real sense the power that we call God is like this. If you throw a certain amount of material into the air these laws of nature will form life. It may take a long time but it will eventually happen. Just as metallic filings will obey the magnetic field so to all of nature obeys the laws of God.

All of the intelligence that forms in the universe forms out of these laws of nature. The structure of the universe forms them into what they become. Whether God exists is not a question in my mind. Because God is the plan of the laws of the universe that give all things their purpose and motion. I wonder at times if God is conscious or--if it requires particles to have consciousness.

I figured that somehow the Consciousness exists first and that all matter is actually a production of conscious agreement on how to behave. There is no reason for energy or matter to exist without some form of consciousness to create it. We Believe that there is not one universe but perhaps an infinite number of universes. How could this be possible if energy and matter were limited to the concept of a finite amount? Matter and energy must be able to come from someplace that is infinite in its own right. There is only one thing that it can exist in the emptiness of the Void outside of our universe and that is the truth. Where there is no particle or no gas the truth can still exist. Therefore it seems reasonable that the truth is conscious.


You dismiss science as "mechanical" but you seem to have little idea of its depth or complexity or the legacy of research that has gone on before us. Speculation is fine, but you're coming to all kinds of conclusions without even opening the books. Feelings are not a great way to determine things, sorry. We don't fly airplanes or do surgery by feelings. We don't engineer buildings or plan interplanetary trajectories by feelings. Feelings are great for watching movies, attending church, making love and all kinds of places in life except where you need to strive for something precise, "objective", reproducible, communicable...a shared enterprise with your fellow humans which all of you can depend on....which is not a description of feelings. Feelings are the responsibility of the experiencer and may or may not have to do with anything real outside of that person...as any rejected lover can tell you. :wink:

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You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:41 pm 
Holy Ghost
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Maksutov wrote:
Speculation is fine, but you're coming to all kinds of conclusions without even opening the books.
:wink:

during reading this thread, i've learned a new word.
not an english one, one for every language

Quote:
Noun
sophomania
A delusion of superior intelligence.


Quote:
Anagrams
monophasia




by the way
SPG wrote:
I watched a documentary that explained the human face what we find attractive. It said golden ratio and 1/3 and 2/3 I thought that they were related.
watched?
video or podcast?

once upon a time, you should try to read a TEXT...

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Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:49 am 
Valiant B
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I don't think true science is mechanical. I think that being "too scientific" is like people who think the Word of Wisdom is the key to salvation, the "89ers." People that take one aspect of a larger reality and hyper focus with such detail that they assume they are authorities of the larger plan.

Ideas like building structures and plotting planetary trajectories do require a lot of science. By science, I mean, confidence in formulas, designs, material strength, etc. But why build a building? Why make it pretty? Why make it functional? Why build it for a specific purpose? Why plot the path of a planet?

What we do must feel good to us, or we resist it. We only use science because it feels right to us and we have confidence in it. I have seen people struggle between what their instincts/feelings told them and what the science told them, and I have seen them choose the science. "Always go with the numbers" they would say. But they had to have a confidence in science that made them believe their odds were best with the science.

But I has also seen those same people approach other issues and totally ignore the science, in fact, not even try to get its opinion. Like, "wow, I think I will have sex with her tonight" and totally ignore that the relationship was statistically doomed to fail.

Feelings are important, but they are not everything. One good example is flying an airplane. Pilots are not allowed to fly at night without instruments because their feelings and instincts will put them into what is called the "Death Spiral" that puts their plane a little bit down and to one side.

Science can observe and predict what types of relationships will last, but I haven't heard of a science that can be applied to make a relationship last. In other words, science can profile two people and say, "these two people will get along and probably stay together from the rest of their life. And bar disaster, they will be happy." But religion can take two people from a much bigger population, put them together and say, "these two people will get along and probably stay together for the rest of their life, and bar disaster, they will be happy."

People are willing to put their faith in a plan. I watched two people work a marriage based pretty much entirely on faith. It seemed to work very well, there was laughter and fun. But one day, the husband decided that he didn't like the religion anymore and wanted to do something else. And the wife said, "well, that is nice, but I had a childhood sweetheart and if we're are not doing this for the faith, I've got other places to be."

She seems happy again, and the husband came back to the religion, but that ship has sailed. My point is, people can and do things for faith that have scientific evidence of success. Many wonder if marriage is a lost cause and many educated people don't seem to believe in it. Science can observe that there is a benefit of marriage, and religion, but it cannot reproduce them. To have people joined in a relationship, strictly based on natural scientific compatibility isn't stable. Humans are emotionally unstable and fight, become jealous, become bitter, etc. Without something to believe it, even the promise of a friend to grow old and die with, people will not stay together, or very few will.

I consider religion science because I can give someone hope and observe a predicted effect. Just like giving someone a drug and observing effect. The consciousness reacts to stimuli, in very predictable and observable ways. So, to me, science can be used to explain everything, but. . . . . most of you guys here don't like my science. I'm OK with that. I think that is because I deal with substances that invisible and cannot be measured in grams or liters. Like to me, hope, fear, love, desire, etc, are valid materials to be used in changing our universe. But how do you measure hope or love? I know that academic science tries to associate emotions to hormones and physical chemistry, but there is a VERY REAL effect of fear and hope that cannot be quantified in a lab.

When we take trees, cut them down and shape them into lumber, we sort of forget that we killed a living thing to get a 2x4. We don't give it another thought. But when we take someone's hope or fear and shape them into a plan, a dream, a quest, everyone gets offended, as if we have violated the rules of life. Religion does with hopes and fears what modern science does with lumber and cement. Giving people are vision, a dream to work toward isn't bad.

You might question, "but religion is a lie." I ask you, what is modern civilization? We are animals. We used to live in the trees. Now we fly above the earth. If you had promised humanity even 100 years ago that we would be here, they would have called you a liar.

I think modern science is surprised more then they have ever been. It seems that several times a year there are a major break through, where we are amazed that something is possible. I personally think that dismissing human feeling as groundless, or stupid, is like trying to explain an apple while denying the apply tree.

Honestly, the science of consciousness is the most fascinating thing I've every encountered.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:59 pm 
God
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SPG
I think that being "too scientific" is like people who think the Word of Wisdom is the key to salvation, the "89ers." People that take one aspect of a larger reality and hyper focus with such detail that they assume they are authorities of the larger plan.


Oh, kind of like prophets do with Elohim and eternal intelligences and apologists do with chiasmus and tapirs in the Book of Mormon? I'm with ya matey! :wink:

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"Being and nonbeing arise mutually. Thus not to see the unity of self and other is the fear of life, and not to see the unity of being and nonbeing is the fear of death." Alan Watts

"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:03 pm 
God
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SPG
Honestly, the science of consciousness is the most fascinating thing I've every encountered.


Agreed. It is, in fact, this kind of study that demonstrated to me the Holy Ghost is yet another human invention. The brain is not supernaturally being communicated with, it is functioning perfectly normal. It's just that there is a lot more to it than we understand at this point. But God is fundamentally irrelevant to our findings/feelings/convolutions/impressions/knowledge/imaginations.

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"Being and nonbeing arise mutually. Thus not to see the unity of self and other is the fear of life, and not to see the unity of being and nonbeing is the fear of death." Alan Watts

"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


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