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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:00 am 
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Themis wrote:
Yes flesh and bone is real. I think you knew that and are playing dumb again. I think we are getting closer to being able to give people their own real flesh and bone limbs back, but I don't see any supernatural powers doing it in the past, present, or future.


Look, I'm dumb enough, I don't have to play. I can only imagine when the first person prayed for a restored limb. Now, I can tell you think I'm expecting some supernatural power to simply knit their limb back on, or grow another. But to me, prayer, the power of want, of asking, is what takes us to the next step. In physics, an electronic seems to move in a very mechanical way, without much choice. But, how to people move? If I get out of my chair to refill my caffeinated soda, it's not exactly the power of physics that makes that choice. Sure, there are all sorts of predictable powers at play, but they are not as direct as say magnetism.

The prayer works on the subconscious, might even embed in the DNA. The wanting of replacement limbs has constantly increased as the expectation to obtain them, and the technology has advanced. We are soon at the point, we could actually replace a limb with a living limb. The stuff they are doing with skin repair is mind blowing. You see science as something that happened in spite of religion, but I say it happened as a result of religion. Without the want, nothing is created.


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Are you a little dim. I am the one who said people are praying for them. The point you either are missing or ignoring is that their prayers for supernatural help are not happening.

Again, you assume that all people praying expect the limb to simply reappear. I cannot deny that there some people that are that simple. Some people are pretty simple, like the NSA woman that recently stated that being White was an act of terrorism. The power to obtain something starts with want, asking is a first step.


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I even asked you question you still ignore about it. Reality is when it comes to healing, areas where where supernatural healing could only come about from a supernatural source never materialize. Sure many people who pray will also get up and do something about it. Pray is the expression of ones desires. It only works if they do something more then express those desires.

I don't mean to ignore your question, but I am pretty dumb. Part of the problem here is that I believe in different realms, or dimensions. In 3D, I don't believe in supernatural. Supernatural is more of a "other worldly" thing. Like, what makes us think that we can go to the moon? Or to another planet? I mean, if you were looking at our ancestors 4 million years ago, would you say, "One day, these guys are going to travel the stars!" Probably not.

What happened between then and now? The impossible happened in the realm of thought and emotions. They did the impossible in their minds and hearts first. How many thousands of years ago did the first ancestor want to go to the moon? But that first desire, left a trail. Even if he/she did nothing but stare up at the moon and want, it changed us. The impossible must be done in realms where it is possible and manifested as it can. There is a power within us that we communicate with when we pray.


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No, they weren't. Civilization developed and grew from changes in the way people gathered and used the resources they found. Farming was the big one in allowing people to remain in one area and build. It's from the development of civilization that we see more elaborate and organized belief systems.

You obviously haven't done much research on our ancestors. Most of our God's started out as agricultural powers. Even Isis, a popular goddess even today was the Goddess of Nile. Even if it seems stupid to us today, the desire to please that gods is what held it together.

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I've seen people who ignore doctors when it comes to cancer. They don't do as well as those who do use modern medicine to trya dn fight their cancer.


Very few people I've known with cancer have survived it. It's a nasty disease. The one or two that I know that have survived did more than what the doctors said. They didn't ignore the doctors, just didn't totally rely on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
SPG, explaining an urban legend, wrote:
There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.

Where do you get these fantastical stories??
SPG wrote:
I get around, and have a wonderfully active imagination.

If I misstated the accepted truth of the Cargo Cults, I sort of apologize. I have my own opinion of what it means. When a member NOM first mentioned them, I contradicted his intended meaning. Whatever their ignorance, they get a desired result....
So regardless of whether you know a story is true or not, you will use the story as though it were true to support your ideas? Ok. I call that being gullible. The coolness of the story is irrelevant if it is not true.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
So regardless of whether you know a story is true or not, you will use the story as though it were true to support your ideas? Ok. I call that being gullible. The coolness of the story is irrelevant if it is not true.


"True" in this case is entirely relative. Even though I am not an expert on Cargo Cults, only have done minimal research on them, I think my opinion reflects what they think. Even though outside observations have come up with different opinions of what they are doing, I think I'm basically stating their belief.

They are trying to attract the thing they mimic. I don't know all those involved, I'm sure there are many different beliefs.

I used them as an example because I agree with their basic idea. By making images of things we want, we attract them to us. It is not so much different than drawing a building plan for a skyscraper, or a model for a hotel. The level of ignorance in the Cargo Cults is probably higher then that of master architect, but the principle is the same.

The mind needs something to work with to give flesh and bones to the things to be manifested from the spirit world. The idea is still cool, even though social scientists have given different meaning to the creation.

My point was, we must first create the impossible in imaginary form. If the desire holds, and the mind stays disciplined, the universe will slowly give form to the desired thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:49 pm 
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They're still waiting. No luck yet...

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:23 am 
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Quote:
"True" in this case is entirely relative. Even though I am not an expert on Cargo Cults, only have done minimal research on them, I think my opinion reflects what they think. Even though outside observations have come up with different opinions of what they are doing, I think I'm basically stating their belief.

You somehow know their "truth," even though you've done minimal research, and the small knowledge you have says something different. Ok.
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...and the mind stays disciplined,...

You must also have your own private definition for disciplined, then.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:01 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:
They're still waiting. No luck yet...

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My mother told me of an experience she had.

It was her first trip to the grand canyon. As she was looking out over the awe inspiring creation she overheard a man say to his wife, "wow, can you believe it took 200 million years to create this and now it just sits here and does nothing."

We humans think that if we are going to invest our faith, it must happen today. Rome wasn't created in a day, nor was human civilization. I understand, even if these guys (pictured above) wait until lunch, a functional airplane may not manifest. But, I'm pretty sure that airplanes have landed and helped these people.

God's promise to Abraham is still in play, even though that promise is about 3000 years old. There may come a day when no human relate to that promise, for now, probably 1/3 of the human population relate to it in some way. They continue to believe and it has a massive influence. I can see us colonizing other worlds and still talking about Abraham.

Again, my intent with this group was to express the idea of believing, acting, and manifesting. Whether these guys are actually good at it, isn't my argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:08 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Quote:
"True" in this case is entirely relative. Even though I am not an expert on Cargo Cults, only have done minimal research on them, I think my opinion reflects what they think. Even though outside observations have come up with different opinions of what they are doing, I think I'm basically stating their belief.

You somehow know their "truth," even though you've done minimal research, and the small knowledge you have says something different. Ok.
Quote:
...and the mind stays disciplined,...

You must also have your own private definition for disciplined, then.

Of course I have my own private definitions, what average crazy guy wouldn't? But they are in tune with common American ideals.

Mental discipline is to remain focused on an intent, desire, or purpose. The conscious and subconsciousness will provide solution and guide you in the way to manifest your desires. Distractions can take you away from what you want.

No amount of research can give a person a full of understanding of anything. Everything is connected and related, so to truly know one thing, you must know all things, and only God can do that. So yes, I used my slim understanding of a people to make a point.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:46 am 
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SPG wrote:
Of course I have my own private definitions, what average crazy guy wouldn't?
Can't argue with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:49 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
SPG wrote:
Of course I have my own private definitions, what average crazy guy wouldn't?
Can't argue with that.

Sounds argumentative to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
SPG wrote:
Of course I have my own private definitions, what average crazy guy wouldn't?
Can't argue with that.

SPG wrote:
Sounds argumentative to me.

You'll have to be specific about your definition of argumentative then. I'm using the standard definition, where 'can't argue with' is used to indicate a non-argumentative position.


Last edited by Lemmie on Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Can't argue with that.

SPG wrote:
[Sounds argumentative to me.

SPG wrote:
You'll have to be specific about your definition of argumentative then. I'm using the standard definition, where 'can't argue with' is used to indicate a non-argumentative position.


In polite society, when someone puts themselves down, it's rude to agree with them. Thus agreeing with someone that is debasing themselves is consider argumentative. Sheeesh, where did you go to Sunday School?


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:51 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Can't argue with that.

Sounds argumentative to me.

Lemmie wrote:
You'll have to be specific about your definition of argumentative then. I'm using the standard definition, where 'can't argue with' is used to indicate a non-argumentative position.

SPG wrote:
In polite society, when someone puts themselves down, it's rude to agree with them. Thus agreeing with someone that is debasing themselves is consider argumentative. Sheeesh, where did you go to Sunday School?

:lol: Sorry, I had no idea you were debasing yourself, it didn't sound any crazier than anything else you've written in this thread!


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:16 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Without the want, nothing is created.


People have the want without religion. It's not a necessary element, and it causers many to pray hoping God will do something and sit an wait. People express their wants without religion all the time.

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Again, you assume that all people praying expect the limb to simply reappear.


I didn't say all people. The reason I use the amputee example is that it shows a group of people never having been given their real limbs back, even though people claim God can heal. The only areas people like to claim God healed them is in areas we know people can get better on their own. Amputees cannot. This is why you would likely find a lot of religious amputees who don't pray too seriously for God to heal them, while many religious people will seriously pray and ask God to heal their cancer believing God can or might do that.

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I don't mean to ignore your question, but I am pretty dumb. Part of the problem here is that I believe in different realms, or dimensions. In 3D, I don't believe in supernatural. Supernatural is more of a "other worldly" thing. Like, what makes us think that we can go to the moon? Or to another planet? I mean, if you were looking at our ancestors 4 million years ago, would you say, "One day, these guys are going to travel the stars!" Probably not.

What happened between then and now? The impossible happened in the realm of thought and emotions. They did the impossible in their minds and hearts first. How many thousands of years ago did the first ancestor want to go to the moon? But that first desire, left a trail. Even if he/she did nothing but stare up at the moon and want, it changed us. The impossible must be done in realms where it is possible and manifested as it can. There is a power within us that we communicate with when we pray.


The problem I see is you coming up with much of what you want to believe on little or no good evidence. There are plenty of possibilities and ideas people come up with, but we will waste most of our lives chasing ones that have little chance of being right. You will get better results with some good skepticism.

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You obviously haven't done much research on our ancestors. Most of our God's started out as agricultural powers. Even Isis, a popular goddess even today was the Goddess of Nile. Even if it seems stupid to us today, the desire to please that gods is what held it together.


I have obviously done a lot more study then you. An agricultural God is something that comes after they start doing agriculture. Agriculture is an important part of creating a civilization. It has nothing to do with beliefs in supernatural Gods. They just happen to be a part of every group of humans in the past. They didn't understand much about the world so we should expect they would come up with very incorrect beliefs about the world around them. You don't have their excuse. :wink:

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Very few people I've known with cancer have survived it. It's a nasty disease. The one or two that I know that have survived did more than what the doctors said. They didn't ignore the doctors, just didn't totally rely on them.


I've known many who have survived. Cancer treatments have become much better with many cancers having a survival rate over 50%. I have seen people who try to use really good eating and natural herbs or faith healing only and have not had good results.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:18 am 
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Themis wrote:
I have obviously done a lot more study then you. An agricultural God is something that comes after they start doing agriculture. Agriculture is an important part of creating a civilization. It has nothing to do with beliefs in supernatural Gods. They just happen to be a part of every group of humans in the past. They didn't understand much about the world so we should expect they would come up with very incorrect beliefs about the world around them. You don't have their excuse. :wink:


If I ignore a question, it's probably because I don't have all day to answer these posts with as much detail that I would like.

I have my own ideas about who God is, and oddly, it doesn't resemble what religion teach. However, just like I wouldn't mock or taunt a first grader trying to learn basic math, I don't mock religion.

To me, God is inside me, in the magic of consciousness, science, biology, etc. I believe the subconscious is a vast realm of conscious that we have not even begun to understand, (and I have my reasons for that.)

My search for God, in a sense, is a quest to understand myself. Why do I do what I do, how deep are the motives? Am I a leave on a tree, or dust in the wind, etc. Ultimately, when I find God, it will be a part of myself that connects to me that reset of the universe via consciousness and purpose.

All humans have sought God, it started as an external search, something in the sky, clouds, temples, etc. As we get closer, we realize that power of the universe is within. But. . . religion told us that a long time ago. "The Kingdom is within."

There are many aspect of God, (told by those that sought him) that imply that God isn't only "living truth" because an conscious being that lives the subconscious of humans, and/or other life forms. These questions are constantly debated, about how "real" God is. But, the part that God is Living Truth, should not be debated. That there is life, means that a truth created it.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Themis wrote:
People have the want without religion. It's not a necessary element, and it causers many to pray hoping God will do something and sit an wait. People express their wants without religion all the time.


Want is a fundamental part of existence. Like gravity is a type of want. Trees bend to the sun for want of light.

But religion is a system of managing want. Like, long before humans every wanted sex, other created wanted it. They wanted sex, because sex was a manifestation of another want, such as survival. You don't have to have religion to want.

But look at how nature deals with many different animals and their want. Bulls will fight to the death, spiders will mate and then the female will rip off her mate's head and lay eggs in his body. These are pretty instinctual manifestations of want.

Take humans again, even in the early days when religion tried to control behavior, strong males would take females. The strong bull (man) took the herd, often killed his competitors. Then, maybe a group of lesser males would gain up on the larger ones and kill them.

So we created the idea of marriage. A woman was to belong to a male and other males were not to touch her. Of course, even today its hard to maintain these unnatural rules, but it is what allowed civilization to thrive. Jealous males didn't have to kill all the other males because he had some faith (foolish man) that his mate was safe and true.

As religion gave structure for our wants to be fairly safe, other wants surfaced. Show the female wanted the male to true to her, (silly females) and so religion helped manifest that desire. Males were required, (even though it totally goes against his nature) to be loyal to his mate. Then desires for safety from other dangers developed in making homes. But rules had to be made so the mates didn't kill each other, so religion ruled in favor of the male. I don't have all the history straight, nor understand all the dynamic, but basically religion developed a structure for humans to get what they wanted. As one want was met, others will grow on top of it.

It's so bad, that our current society goes almost entirely against the forces that created us. No we protect children that are born weak and should have died. We protect children that nature would have killed a long time ago, because we want to. A woman can take her children and leave an abusive man, which is totally against what nature set up. Back when we were living under trees a woman would never get away with that. Religion built the structure that got us here.

People today can claim they don't have religion, but how much do they use the tools that religion created? I understand that some species mate for life on their own, but humans are more herd like. They were not naturally like that. Not to say we didn't want it, but it wasn't part of our nature.

Summary: Religion was a system of managing want. If you wanted to sex, you had to commit to take care of your mate. If you had children, you (the father) were required to take care of them. If you had a wife, you were expected to provide a home and protect it, etc. The system got more complex, so did the desires.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:36 am 
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SPG wrote:
Themis wrote:
I have obviously done a lot more study then you. An agricultural God is something that comes after they start doing agriculture. Agriculture is an important part of creating a civilization. It has nothing to do with beliefs in supernatural Gods. They just happen to be a part of every group of humans in the past. They didn't understand much about the world so we should expect they would come up with very incorrect beliefs about the world around them. You don't have their excuse. :wink:


If I ignore a question, it's probably because I don't have all day to answer these posts with as much detail that I would like.

I have my own ideas about who God is, and oddly, it doesn't resemble what religion teach. However, just like I wouldn't mock or taunt a first grader trying to learn basic math, I don't mock religion.

To me, God is inside me, in the magic of consciousness, science, biology, etc. I believe the subconscious is a vast realm of conscious that we have not even begun to understand, (and I have my reasons for that.)

My search for God, in a sense, is a quest to understand myself. Why do I do what I do, how deep are the motives? Am I a leave on a tree, or dust in the wind, etc. Ultimately, when I find God, it will be a part of myself that connects to me that reset of the universe via consciousness and purpose.

All humans have sought God, it started as an external search, something in the sky, clouds, temples, etc. As we get closer, we realize that power of the universe is within. But. . . religion told us that a long time ago. "The Kingdom is within."

There are many aspect of God, (told by those that sought him) that imply that God isn't only "living truth" because an conscious being that lives the subconscious of humans, and/or other life forms. These questions are constantly debated, about how "real" God is. But, the part that God is Living Truth, should not be debated. That there is life, means that a truth created it.


Your preaching again stuff you have no idea is true, and it's not even on the topic of the post you quoted. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:45 am 
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SPG wrote:
Themis wrote:
People have the want without religion. It's not a necessary element, and it causers many to pray hoping God will do something and sit an wait. People express their wants without religion all the time.


Want is a fundamental part of existence. Like gravity is a type of want. Trees bend to the sun for want of light.


A type of want? Seriously? This is why no one can have a real conversation with you. Gravity being a type of want just redefining words for no reason other then maybe to muddle conversation.

Quote:
So we created the idea of marriage.


The concept may have existed long before homo sapiens existed. The concept is also varied in it's definitions. Many societies have different rules about who you can marry, and how many. I agree that much of it may be to help create more stable environments for the group to better survive and thrive.

Quote:
People today can claim they don't have religion, but how much do they use the tools that religion created?


You mean tools you have never shown came from religion, or that you define everything as religion? The whole point of a language is so that people have an agreed on rules and definitions so they can communicate.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:46 am 
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Themis wrote:
Your preaching again stuff you have no idea is true, and it's not even on the topic of the post you quoted. :rolleyes:


Yeah, I was just sharing. Sorry about that. What were we talking about?


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:43 am 
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Themis wrote:
A type of want? Seriously? This is why no one can have a real conversation with you. Gravity being a type of want just redefining words for no reason other then maybe to muddle conversation.


want verb (used with object)
1. to feel a need or a desire for; wish for:
to want one's dinner; always wanting something new.
2. to wish, need, crave, demand, or desire (often followed by an infinitive):
I want to see you. She wants to be notified.
3. to be without or be deficient in:
to want judgment; to want knowledge.
4. to fall short by (a specified amount):
The sum collected wants but a few dollars of the desired amount.
5. to require or need:
The house wants painting.

Gravity draws things. In electrical theory, protons want electrons. In chemistry, atoms want their co-valence filled with a specific number of electronic. This term is so interchangeable that people will compare their sexuality to chemistry. Want is more commonly associated with humans. Attraction is al a form of want. When people are attracted to each, they have a want for each, for whatever reasons. The "want/attraction" can be of almost any flavor.

Galaxies are massive engines where life grows. Their gravitational influence is one of the fundamental building blocks of life as we know it. It might seem random and chaotic to you, but to me it is poetry in motion. To me, the natural attraction between objects is a manifestation of God's love.

A black hole wants things, calls to them, seducing them into its eternal embrace. That you don't want to see the bigger part of the universe as a living being. . . . doesn't mean I'm using my terms wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:06 am 
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SPG wrote:
want verb (used with object)
1. to feel a need or a desire for; wish for:
to want one's dinner; always wanting something new.
2. to wish, need, crave, demand, or desire (often followed by an infinitive):
I want to see you. She wants to be notified.
3. to be without or be deficient in:
to want judgment; to want knowledge.
4. to fall short by (a specified amount):
The sum collected wants but a few dollars of the desired amount.
5. to require or need:
The house wants painting.

Gravity draws things. In electrical theory, protons want electrons. In chemistry, atoms want their co-valence filled with a specific number of electronic. This term is so interchangeable that people will compare their sexuality to chemistry. Want is more commonly associated with humans. Attraction is al a form of want. When people are attracted to each, they have a want for each, for whatever reasons. The "want/attraction" can be of almost any flavor.

Galaxies are massive engines where life grows. Their gravitational influence is one of the fundamental building blocks of life as we know it. It might seem random and chaotic to you, but to me it is poetry in motion. To me, the natural attraction between objects is a manifestation of God's love.

A black hole wants things, calls to them, seducing them into its eternal embrace. That you don't want to see the bigger part of the universe as a living being. . . . doesn't mean I'm using my terms wrong.


Fine for metaphor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy

I prefer less poetry and more truth on the matter. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:

Fine for metaphor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy

I prefer less poetry and more truth on the matter. :wink:

Lol. Wow. That sounds bad.

I think that you guys are too scientific. There many aspects of life that are difficult to track scientifically. Extremists might claim there is no such thing as love because it cannot be qualified. Yet, for something that is non existent it seems to make the world go round.

For example you might say that human emotions don't translate to physics. But if I want a rock and pick it up, desire just caused physics. We are, in an absolute sense, star dusk expressing desire and making things happen as we want. We are essentially an asteroid transformed into humans. Who did that? Why?

Because our lives are so short, we cannot see that perhaps some older living process is ar work.


Truth happens. We are here. That you believe that humans understand all of the truth is confusing to me.

Personally, I observe that some hidden intelligence is working with humans and has for a very long time.


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