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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Ya that's the point. You make up beliefs you don't have any idea are really true. Beliefs can make people do both bad and good things, and the more accurate ones beliefs are the better off they and everyone else will be.


Faith is like the placebo effect.

If I believe that taking a pill makes me a feel better, and it makes me feel better, then that belief is true.
Even if the pill is a sugar pill, it still have powerful effects. It can even create harsh side effects.

If the brain "obeys" or accepts as true a certain thought, then the power of faith occurs.

If I believe a thought, and nothing happens, then obviously that belief is ineffective.

But if I believe in Jesus, and I feel better at night, why do I have to back that up with science?


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:19 am 
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SPG wrote:
Themis wrote:
Ya that's the point. You make up beliefs you don't have any idea are really true. Beliefs can make people do both bad and good things, and the more accurate ones beliefs are the better off they and everyone else will be.


Faith is like the placebo effect.

If I believe that taking a pill makes me a feel better, and it makes me feel better, then that belief is true.
Even if the pill is a sugar pill, it still have powerful effects. It can even create harsh side effects.

If the brain "obeys" or accepts as true a certain thought, then the power of faith occurs.

If I believe a thought, and nothing happens, then obviously that belief is ineffective.

But if I believe in Jesus, and I feel better at night, why do I have to back that up with science?


Placebo effects are limited, and they are both good and bad. Having a strong faith in God and that you are evil and need to be killed is also quite powerful, but you probably wouldn't agree with them that it is good.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Placebo effects are limited, and they are both good and bad. Having a strong faith in God and that you are evil and need to be killed is also quite powerful, but you probably wouldn't agree with them that it is good.


I agree. Placebo effect in a pill for a moment can be powerful. But over a lifetime, or even over a thousand years is earth changing.

And as for good or bad, I agree. That is the challenge of life. Believing something gives us power, but if that is power unto destruction than of course, that is a bad.

But how many times has the world been changed because someone felt a "call?" We have power, but it takes faith that we applying it in the right direction.


Last edited by SPG on Wed May 31, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Sorry, but the Spanish Inquisition was entirely about upholding the power of the POPE (Father). Just as Adolf was the FATHER of the "Fatherland." It had nothing to do with GOD and everything to do with selfish control and power. The Roman Catholic Church didn't want competition nor anyone even reading the Bible without an authoritative (Papacy) explanation. Never mind the Holy Spirit!


Do you know what this is, Nipper? Image

There's another German phrase you should be familiar with: Kinder, Küche, Kirche. :wink:


MONTHLY ESSAYS OBSERVATIONS EDITORS' PICKS SUBJECTS ABOUT MOSAIC
Adolf Hitler Was Neither Christian Nor Atheist
FEB. 14 2017
In Hitler’s Religion, Richard Weikart thoroughly examines the evidence of the Nazi leader’s religious beliefs. Gary Scott Smith, calling the book a “fascinating, meticulous study,” summarizes its conclusions:

Hitler repeatedly affirmed the existence of God, but his conception of God differed substantially from the Bible’s. He rejected Christ’s divinity and frequently mocked Christianity. Hitler, Weikart points out, was a baptized, confirmed Catholic raised in Austria, a predominantly Catholic country, and he retained some vestiges of Christianity. Nevertheless, he repeatedly repudiated Christianity (especially privately) as “a Jewish plot to undermine the heroic ideals of the Aryan-dominated Roman Empire.” Hitler denounced Christianity as a poison, outmoded and dying, ridiculed its teachings, and persecuted Protestant and Catholic churches alike during the Third Reich [in cases when they refused to do his bidding]. Nor was Hitler an occultist, [as some have claimed], since he explicitly repudiated key occult convictions and mystical practices.

Weikart argues that Hitler is best understood as a pantheist, one who believes that nature is God and that the cosmos provides principles to guide human conduct. He frequently deified nature, referring to it as eternal and all powerful. . . . While presenting God as the creator and sustainer of the Volk—the German people—Hitler and the Nazis used religious symbols, terms, and passion in their speeches, rallies, and ceremonies to create an alternative faith. Hitler fully expected the Nazi worldview to replace Christianity in Germany and transform its culture and life. Moreover, Nazi propaganda depicted Hitler [himself] as a messianic figure, a savior chosen by God to liberate Germany from the punitive Versailles Treaty and restore its power and place in the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:30 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:

Do you know what this is, Nipper? Image

There's another German phrase you should be familiar with: Kinder, Küche, Kirche. :wink:


MONTHLY ESSAYS OBSERVATIONS EDITORS' PICKS SUBJECTS ABOUT MOSAIC
Adolf Hitler Was Neither Christian Nor Atheist
FEB. 14 2017
In Hitler’s Religion, Richard Weikart thoroughly examines the evidence of the Nazi leader’s religious beliefs. Gary Scott Smith, calling the book a “fascinating, meticulous study,” summarizes its conclusions:

Hitler repeatedly affirmed the existence of God, but his conception of God differed substantially from the Bible’s. He rejected Christ’s divinity and frequently mocked Christianity. Hitler, Weikart points out, was a baptized, confirmed Catholic raised in Austria, a predominantly Catholic country, and he retained some vestiges of Christianity. Nevertheless, he repeatedly repudiated Christianity (especially privately) as “a Jewish plot to undermine the heroic ideals of the Aryan-dominated Roman Empire.” Hitler denounced Christianity as a poison, outmoded and dying, ridiculed its teachings, and persecuted Protestant and Catholic churches alike during the Third Reich [in cases when they refused to do his bidding]. Nor was Hitler an occultist, [as some have claimed], since he explicitly repudiated key occult convictions and mystical practices.

Weikart argues that Hitler is best understood as a pantheist, one who believes that nature is God and that the cosmos provides principles to guide human conduct. He frequently deified nature, referring to it as eternal and all powerful. . . . While presenting God as the creator and sustainer of the Volk—the German people—Hitler and the Nazis used religious symbols, terms, and passion in their speeches, rallies, and ceremonies to create an alternative faith. Hitler fully expected the Nazi worldview to replace Christianity in Germany and transform its culture and life. Moreover, Nazi propaganda depicted Hitler [himself] as a messianic figure, a savior chosen by God to liberate Germany from the punitive Versailles Treaty and restore its power and place in the world.


Oh really? And wasn't Germany a Christian country? And wasn't Hitler elected by Christians? And didn't he have the support of the Lutherans and the Catholics? Your Weikart is an apologist for the indefensible. The Germans were Christians and Nazis. "God is with us" is not the cry of a pantheist, any more than it was when other rulers killed in the name of Christ. The lesson of Jerzy Kosinski's The Painted Bird was that antisemitism and brutality did not originate in Hitler...it was there in the people and he simply exploited it.

Christians were behind the blood libel. Christians persecuted Jews as "Christkillers" for centuries. Christians promoted, aided and abetted the holocaust. It's a fact, Nipper. Sorry. It's not one of your fake Bible stories. It was not all Christians, of course, and American and British Christians had to kill German Christians to stop genocide. My father helped keep the Germans that remained in Berlin alive as he participated in the Berlin Airlift. The allies and the Marshall Plan helped reform the German people in the wake of Hitler's devastation, not the Christians or Christianity. This isn't Bible folklore, Nipper.

It is amusing to read your Jack Chick versions of history. With old Jack gone, the fundies will need more cartoon thinkers to step up. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:27 am 
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SPG wrote:
But how many times has the world been changed because someone felt a "call?" We have power, but it takes faith that we applying it in the right direction.


Applying it in the right direction takes good skepticism.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:38 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
... cartoon thinkers ...

fits 100%

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sls5H4xVHys ...
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype ...

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Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
MONTHLY ESSAYS OBSERVATIONS EDITORS' PICKS SUBJECTS ABOUT MOSAIC
Adolf Hitler Was Neither Christian Nor Atheist
FEB. 14 2017
In Hitler’s Religion, Richard Weikart thoroughly examines the evidence of the Nazi leader’s religious beliefs. Gary Scott Smith, calling the book a “fascinating, meticulous study,” summarizes its conclusions:

Hitler repeatedly affirmed the existence of God, but his conception of God differed substantially from the Bible’s. He rejected Christ’s divinity and frequently mocked Christianity. Hitler, Weikart points out, was a baptized, confirmed Catholic raised in Austria, a predominantly Catholic country, and he retained some vestiges of Christianity. Nevertheless, he repeatedly repudiated Christianity (especially privately) as “a Jewish plot to undermine the heroic ideals of the Aryan-dominated Roman Empire.” Hitler denounced Christianity as a poison, outmoded and dying, ridiculed its teachings, and persecuted Protestant and Catholic churches alike during the Third Reich [in cases when they refused to do his bidding]. Nor was Hitler an occultist, [as some have claimed], since he explicitly repudiated key occult convictions and mystical practices.

Weikart argues that Hitler is best understood as a pantheist, one who believes that nature is God and that the cosmos provides principles to guide human conduct. He frequently deified nature, referring to it as eternal and all powerful. . . . While presenting God as the creator and sustainer of the Volk—the German people—Hitler and the Nazis used religious symbols, terms, and passion in their speeches, rallies, and ceremonies to create an alternative faith. Hitler fully expected the Nazi worldview to replace Christianity in Germany and transform its culture and life. Moreover, Nazi propaganda depicted Hitler [himself] as a messianic figure, a savior chosen by God to liberate Germany from the punitive Versailles Treaty and restore its power and place in the world.


Oh really? And wasn't Germany a Christian country? And wasn't Hitler elected by Christians? And didn't he have the support of the Lutherans and the Catholics? Your Weikart is an apologist for the indefensible. The Germans were Christians and Nazis. "God is with us" is not the cry of a pantheist, any more than it was when other rulers killed in the name of Christ. The lesson of Jerzy Kosinski's The Painted Bird was that antisemitism and brutality did not originate in Hitler...it was there in the people and he simply exploited it.

Christians were behind the blood libel. Christians persecuted Jews as "Christkillers" for centuries. Christians promoted, aided and abetted the holocaust. It's a fact, Nipper. Sorry. It's not one of your fake Bible stories. It was not all Christians, of course, and American and British Christians had to kill German Christians to stop genocide. My father helped keep the Germans that remained in Berlin alive as he participated in the Berlin Airlift. The allies and the Marshall Plan helped reform the German people in the wake of Hitler's devastation, not the Christians or Christianity. This isn't Bible folklore, Nipper.

It is amusing to read your Jack Chick versions of history. With old Jack gone, the fundies will need more cartoon thinkers to step up. :lol:


SIr: Does ALL the money of the United States read "IN GOD WE TRUST"? Does that make America a "Christian" nation? Does that make you a Christian? You seem to imagine that because people wear crosses around their necks that makes them Bible thumpers? I've seen enough cross tattoos on enough creeps to know better. :ugeek:PS the Romans executed Jesus --- I don't hate Italians on account of it.
Also there seems enough evidence to indicate that Hitler was of Jewish descent.


Last edited by LittleNipper on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:06 am 
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Themis wrote:
SPG wrote:
But how many times has the world been changed because someone felt a "call?" We have power, but it takes faith that we applying it in the right direction.


Applying it in the right direction takes good skepticism.


In an universe of infinite problems and solutions, picking a direction is a very hard thing. There are so many things we want and that way to get them is infinitely complex. What we do, is an attempt to get what we want.

Of course we are skeptical, but to much skepticism can kill us.

Imagine the desert we talked about earlier in this thread. You know that if you pick the right direction, you can live, but there are thousands of wrong choices. You can pick one direction with faith, or you can eliminate thousands of choices by skepticism. But in the end, when you take that first step, it is with some hope and courage that you are going the right way, it is with faith.

If you just give up and died, you have lost faith. If skepticism kills all of your choices, then you won't do anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:14 am 
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SPG wrote:

If you just give up and died, you have lost faith. If skepticism kills all of your choices, then you won't do anything.


Skepticism helps top eliminate the poor choices so one is more likely to pick a better choice. Skepticism does not kill faith. In this situation you may find only poor choices or odds of survival, but you can use skepticism to find the best of the worst and go with it. I wouldn't give up just because I recognize the odds are really low when it involves ones survival.

Is it wise for a near sighted very religious person to just pray God will miraculously make them see well, or would it be better to go see an optometrist? I see a lot of very religious people with glasses. How about an amputee. Should they spend their days praying God will heal them with a real limb, or would it be better to be skeptical and go about helping the scientific community learn how to grow one? Has God ever healed a missing limb?

How about cancer. If two people get cancer and one prays and prays they will be healed, while the other gets motivated to help raise money for cancer research, who is likely to have more positive affect on the world?

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Themis wrote:
How about an amputee. Should they spend their days praying God will heal them with a real limb, or would it be better to be skeptical and go about helping the scientific community learn how to grow one? Has God ever healed a missing limb?

How about cancer. If two people get cancer and one prays and prays they will be healed, while the other gets motivated to help raise money for cancer research, who is likely to have more positive affect on the world?


Faith is a little bit like an electron. One might not do much, but they are foundation of power, (give or take some.)

More faith gives more motivation.

As for limbs. We are making limbs for people. I've seen some printed out on 3D printers at home. Yes, those are the answers to prayer.

A short story: about 5 years ago my sister was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer. Another female about the same age, (a friend of a friend) was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer.

Both were given 3-6 months to live. Both had doctors and used alternative medicine. My sister had a small army praying for her. She was the 1 in 20 survivor. The other lady died. My sister had people applying prayer technology that she participated in.

3 years later, her surgeon asked about how she thought she had survived. His friend had gotten the same cancer and she was the miracle he wanted to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:08 pm 
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SPG wrote:
A short story: about 5 years ago my sister was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer. Another female about the same age, (a friend of a friend) was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer.

Both were given 3-6 months to live. Both had doctors and used alternative medicine. My sister had a small army praying for her. She was the 1 in 20 survivor. The other lady died. My sister had people applying prayer technology that she participated in.

Please tell me you never shared this story with your friend of a friend's family. Besides it being no proof whatsoever of anything, and only supporting the probabilities given by the doctors, it would be incredibly hurtful to her family to have to listen to such nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Please tell me you never shared this story with your friend of a friend's family. Besides it being no proof whatsoever of anything, and only supporting the probabilities given by the doctors, it would be incredibly hurtful to her family to have to listen to such nonsense.

I didn't. I'm only an a$$hole online.

And you are right. It's not scientific evidence. But it is a faith promoting story. The science suggests that her exposure to second hand smoke from her job in a casino that triggered a genetic defense that gave her the extra edge to fight.

The sounds like BS too, but science believers suck it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:43 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Themis wrote:
How about an amputee. Should they spend their days praying God will heal them with a real limb, or would it be better to be skeptical and go about helping the scientific community learn how to grow one? Has God ever healed a missing limb?

How about cancer. If two people get cancer and one prays and prays they will be healed, while the other gets motivated to help raise money for cancer research, who is likely to have more positive affect on the world?


Faith is a little bit like an electron. One might not do much, but they are foundation of power, (give or take some.)

More faith gives more motivation.

As for limbs. We are making limbs for people. I've seen some printed out on 3D printers at home. Yes, those are the answers to prayer.

A short story: about 5 years ago my sister was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer. Another female about the same age, (a friend of a friend) was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer.

Both were given 3-6 months to live. Both had doctors and used alternative medicine. My sister had a small army praying for her. She was the 1 in 20 survivor. The other lady died. My sister had people applying prayer technology that she participated in.

3 years later, her surgeon asked about how she thought she had survived. His friend had gotten the same cancer and she was the miracle he wanted to understand.


Prosthetic's are not real limbs, and they didn't get them from praying. They got them from people who applied their brains to coming up with solutions. No supernatural in sight. That is the point you are ignoring about people praying to get healed from God. Try to stay on topic. So now, who is more influential in the world? The one who just prays or the one who goes out and raises money and attention to the problem?

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Prosthetic's are not real limbs, and they didn't get them from praying. They got them from people who applied their brains to coming up with solutions. No supernatural in sight. That is the point you are ignoring about people praying to get healed from God. Try to stay on topic. So now, who is more influential in the world? The one who just prays or the one who goes out and raises money and attention to the problem?


Not real? What is real? Flesh and bone? How long until we can do that?

And trust me, people do pray for them. They might pray for their "original limb" and the prosthetic limb is what they get. People of science think that because people pray that they expect the original limb to grow back. And I am sure that people do hope, wish, pray, beg, etc, for their limbs to come back. Pray is a strong form of asking. You assume, that people that pray don't apply their brain, and think that they don't have to. You assume that people who pray will only accept a supernatural solution to their need.

If someone lost and limb, but didn't want a new one, how many people would try to give them one? Some might have not wanted a prosthetic limb, but few would simply "not wish" to have it back.

I don't really separate God from science. God is the "Living Truth", meaning that God is the science/truth/law of life. What happens, is truth. What is part of life, is part of God. . . . and much that isn't part of life is also part of of God.

There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.)

But the picture I was cool. Basically, primitive tribes would build wooden looking airplanes out of sticks and branches to mimic what they saw flying overhead. People would be so shocked, they land their planes to take pictures. The tribes believed that in order to get the planes to land, their needed to build an image of them. People only landed, for the most part, to take pictures of the model plane.

There is a name for the phenomenon, but there is evidence that through out history humans have built images of ideas they wanted to manifest. In this case, it worked. The planes did land.

But creating images of God, civilizations have developed and grown.

Science isn't different than God. However, many people that believe in science tend to disbelieve religion, and vice versa. The Science Community is just another cult, thinking they know the truth, just like religion.

I don't care truth comes from, I seek it wherever I can find it. People that pray for God for help very often get it. There is evidence that pray has cured cancer, but it's not probably not as common modern methods. If I had cancer, I would go to a doctor, but I would also go to God. If I had a strong impression that I do something different than the doctors advised, I would do it.

In fact, I did. Just to tell on myself a little. I have several mildly deadly diseases, like, not matter what I did, I couldn't keep my blood sugar under control. I tried to follow the doctors, but it wasn't working. Finally, I went with my gut, and went against the doctors advice, and move toward low carb, high fat, (bad for my heart disease.) My numbers can around fairly quickly, things are looking up for the first time in years. I told my doctors, she said agreed with me, but wouldn't mention it to my previous doctor who still asked after me.

There are large groups of people that defying the doctors, not out of spite, but out of trust in their own abilities to know what is good for them. Many of I talked to have come back from the brink of death. They don't hate doctors, they just know they cannot fully trust them. Faith in self, which is sort of like trust in God, is very important.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:55 pm 
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duplicate


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:47 pm 
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SPG, explaining an urban legend, wrote:
There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.)

But the picture I was cool. Basically, primitive tribes would build wooden looking airplanes out of sticks and branches to mimic what they saw flying overhead. People would be so shocked, they land their planes to take pictures. The tribes believed that in order to get the planes to land, their needed to build an image of them. People only landed, for the most part, to take pictures of the model plane.

There is a name for the phenomenon, but there is evidence that through out history humans have built images of ideas they wanted to manifest. In this case, it worked. The planes did land.

Where do you get these fantastical stories??
Quote:
The popular version of the John Frum story may seem a little whimsical. It's actually quite oversimplified and misstates the actual causes and motivations behind what happened....

[actual history, snipped]

And so it's clear that the John Frum Movement has more to it than just a silly superstition that if you build something that looks like a dock out of bamboo, supply ships will come streaming in. That's how cargo cults are often portrayed, and it's really not a fair description....

[realistic discussion of the phenomena, snipped.]

And so while cargo cults may seem, at first glance, like quaint stone age ignorance, they're actually not entirely irrational. They're certainly naïve and based on a fallacious confusion of correlation and causation, but to give their believers some credit, they're doing their best to make sense of what they've been given. Where this belief system fails them, quite obviously, is that it replaces the need to work hard to achieve goals with the belief that faith will provide. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4199


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:35 pm 
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SPG, explaining an urban legend, wrote:
There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.)

But the picture I was cool. Basically, primitive tribes would build wooden looking airplanes out of sticks and branches to mimic what they saw flying overhead. People would be so shocked, they land their planes to take pictures. The tribes believed that in order to get the planes to land, their needed to build an image of them. People only landed, for the most part, to take pictures of the model plane.

There is a name for the phenomenon, but there is evidence that through out history humans have built images of ideas they wanted to manifest. In this case, it worked. The planes did land.


Just a note: Cargo cults evolved in Vanuatu (not Africa). Vanuatu was once called the New Hebrides Islands. Vanuatu was used as a logistics and supply base during The Second World War by the US military. The locals saw cargo planes being unloaded on airstrips with all kinds of good stuff being delivered. They built plane decoys to try and coax them to land near their villages. There are still some cargo cults in Vanuatu. cognitive dissonance?

My nephew just returned from a 27 month volunteer stint for the Peace Corp in Vanuatu.

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:02 pm 
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DrW wrote:
If indeed you had checked, you would know that Lemmie is an academic.

You are making a common logical fallacy - appeal to authority - whereas you assume that because "academic" must conclude "more correct". Reality insists that there are good academics and incompetent academics - ergo, your assumption is illogical.

DrW wrote:
This means that, unlike you, she is well trained and experienced in distinguishing fact from fiction and valid information from the kind of nonsense for which you have become so well known.

That does not actually "mean that". It could very well be that Lemmie did quite poorly in those classes and relied upon studies in speculation and courses in arrogant posturing to bolster the gpa and thus receive these mysterious credentials you term as "academic".

DrW wrote:
There is so much wrong with your statements, and the badly spun science and pseudoscience described in the articles you cited, that it's hard to know where to begin.

another logical fallacy...just because an argument is presented poorly does not invalidate the argument.

DrW wrote:
As everyone reading this will know (except you, apparently) cardiac arrest is not the same as death.

This is a good point, but it brings into question how you would like to define death in order to rebut the argument (aka move the goalpost). Surely the definition of death has been rather flexible over the course of medical history...so it stands to reason that the definition of life might well suffer from the same ambiguity. Either way it presents a rather awkward position where you are unable to adequately refute the OP's claim. This point being manifest by how you would prefer t attack the messenger rather then the message.

DrW wrote:
Cardiac arrest simply means that the heart ceases normal function and that, as a result, insufficient oxygenated blood is being circulated to allow for normal cell function over the long term.

Funny, I thought cardiac arrest simply meant a sudden, sometimes temporary, cessation of the function of the heart. Your amending the definition to include some of the possible consequences of cardiac arrest is interesting, but you also omit the fact that another consequence is indeed death.

DrW wrote:
Over the short term in cardiac arrest, the brain can continue to function, whether conscious or unconscious, often for some time, especially if body temperature is lowered.

Yes, it surely can...but also the brain can die...there is no definitive "time limit" is there? I mean some brains last longer or shorter than other brains, correct? (and the irony of your use of the terms conscious/unconscious is not lost)

DrW wrote:
This is why young children involved in cold water drownings can sometimes be resuscitated after being under water for extended periods (up to 30 minutes in rare cases).

Yes, that is one reason why, not the sole reason - again a logical fallacy on your part.
In these cases are brain functions being monitored/determined during the resuscitation? I mean something in addition to pupil dilation?
And how can you exclusively argue this position about the brain when it is possible to be declared brain dead (irreversible unconsciousness with complete loss of brain function) yet the heart still beats, possibly for prolonged amounts of time?

DrW wrote:
Open heart surgical procedures can involve lowering body temperature and intentionally stopping the heart for up to 45 minutes or so, while cardiopulmonary by-pass equipment provides oxygenated blood to the patient.

irrelevant to the OP

DrW wrote:
Death occurs when there is no longer electrical activity in the brain, not when the heart stops.

Not true - as noted above. Brain death can occur without a death certificate being able to be executed. You cannot gyrate the definition of death to suit your argument while you criticize the OP for doing the same.

DrW wrote:
The term "flat line" when referring to what many term "clinical death" means that there is no signal on the electrocardiogram (EKG - from the heart), not the electroencephalogram (EEG - from the brain).

Yet these 'grams' are likely not both available for drowning children you mention above.

DrW wrote:
Conscious perception, thought, and especially memory, are a result of electrical activity in the brain.

This is an unproven claim. Brain electrical activity may well be synonymous with a runny nose whereas the sniffles are not the cold.

DrW wrote:
In most jurisdictions, the term 'death' has come to mean brain death, or the total absence of electrical activity in the brain including the brain stem. After brain death, no perception, thought or memory can exist. Brain death is irreversible - period.

Well, since you mention the "legal" definition of death (see also comment above about ambiguous death definitions, moving goal posts, and your criticisms of OP's freelance defining of death) -
Please list the jurisdictions where a death certificate may be issued solely for a brain dead person whose heart is still beating by natural or artificial means.

DrW wrote:
These are scientific and medical facts, and should be kept in mind when judging the validity of sensationalistic, life after death, click bait woo woo such as found in the articles you cite as "evidence".

Yeah, you mentioned a few scientific facts, but you also noted some fantasy, some speculation, some legalese, and other such nonsense.
So, glass houses - amiright?

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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:38 pm 
Valiant B
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Posts: 187
Lemmie wrote:
SPG, explaining an urban legend, wrote:
There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.

Where do you get these fantastical stories??

I get around, and have a wonderfully active imagination.

If I misstated the accepted truth of the Cargo Cults, I sort of apologize. I have my own opinion of what it means. When a member NOM first mentioned them, I contradicted his intended meaning. Whatever their ignorance, they get a desired result.

Building images and temples to ideas and concepts is prominent is most advanced civilizations. A temple to Zeus isn't exactly Zeus, but it is meant to embody his ideals and powers. People went there to pray for his help, his courage, his wisdom, his strength, etc.

The Spartan warriors were considered some of the fiercest in European History. Spirit is invisible and expressing it is often done with physical objects that are not the spirit, but meant to represent it.


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 Post subject: Re: Science proves life after death
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:02 am 
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SPG wrote:
Not real? What is real? Flesh and bone? How long until we can do that?


Yes flesh and bone is real. I think you knew that and are playing dumb again. I think we are getting closer to being able to give people their own real flesh and bone limbs back, but I don't see any supernatural powers doing it in the past, present, or future.

Quote:
And trust me, people do pray for them.


Are you a little dim. I am the one who said people are praying for them. The point you either are missing or ignoring is that their prayers for supernatural help are not happening.

Quote:
You assume, that people that pray don't apply their brain, and think that they don't have to. You assume that people who pray will only accept a supernatural solution to their need.


I never said that or assumed that. You are the one who makes a lot of incorrect assumptions. I even asked you question you still ignore about it. Reality is when it comes to healing, areas where where supernatural healing could only come about from a supernatural source never materialize. Sure many people who pray will also get up and do something about it. Pray is the expression of ones desires. It only works if they do something more then express those desires.

Quote:
But creating images of God, civilizations have developed and grown.


No, they weren't. Civilization developed and grew from changes in the way people gathered and used the resources they found. Farming was the big one in allowing people to remain in one area and build. It's from the development of civilization that we see more elaborate and organized belief systems.

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There are large groups of people that defying the doctors, not out of spite, but out of trust in their own abilities to know what is good for them. Many of I talked to have come back from the brink of death. They don't hate doctors, they just know they cannot fully trust them. Faith in self, which is sort of like trust in God, is very important.


I've seen people who ignore doctors when it comes to cancer. They don't do as well as those who do use modern medicine to trya dn fight their cancer.

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