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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Substantia

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Earnest reply but why would Mormon care what later Latin Fathers thought? Beyond perhaps arguing some Mormon doctrines aren't as far out of the history of Christianity as some present. But from a Mormon perspective most of these figures are already from a period when the nature of God was lost. Many (myself included) would argue that part of the problem was thinking about God through a lens of Greek absolutism about God. (The God or Aristotle or Plato)

I recognize our other Christian friends would disagree with that.

As I said saying God is one (which I believe) means little unless we can explain how they are one. That many of the fathers up to Augustine saw this through the lens of a more Platonic conception seems true but hardly the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:11 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
It does no good to say some things are one unless you can establish what is meant by that unity.

The primary problem on traditional formulations of the Trinity is in thinking of unity purely as substance. Which leads to the logical problems of the Trinity. There are of course ways to deal with this. Duns Supreme Court has my favorite approaches and even though I don't accept an Augustinian Trinity I think some of Duns Supreme Court' thoughts on substance are likely correct.

It's also important to note that prominent Mormons have accepted a substantial unity to the Godhead. Orson Pratt is the most famous with a rather odd materialist take on it. The more common view, especially in the 20th century, was far more nominalistic of course. But there's really no theological reason to assume the nominalistic views where the unity is just of mental states is correct. I'd actually argue there are compelling reasons within the Mormon tradition to be very skeptical of nominalist takes on divine unity.


The definition of substance


Substantia
There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Mittens wrote:
The definition of substance


Again why should someone who doesn't already consider the Latin Fathers as correct assume that the definition of a latin word tells us about the Godhead? Certainly the the New Testament wasn't written in Latin.

But even with the Latin you outline you fully admit that it had different senses and depending upon which Father you are talking of it's not clear they are speaking metaphysically. Further for the Trinity to work and avoid modalism one has to change what the substance means. (Thus the appropriation of certain neoplatonic conceptions along with the metaphysical innovation of rejecting its emanation model)


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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
...beer!

One word, sir. Trappistenbier.


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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
...beer!

One word, sir. Trappistenbier.


Indeed. You are clearly a gentleman of fine upbringing and excellent taste.

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:12 pm 
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I meant to suggest that the devil might not have all the best beer. But to give fair and balanced treatment, I admit that this diabolical stuff is my favorite: http://www.arrogantbrewing.com/beer/year-round-releases/arrogant-bastard-ale.

Arg, I've probably violated about three different rules of Celestial Forum, now, counting commercial endorsements. D'oh.


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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
I meant to suggest that the devil might not have all the best beer. But to give fair and balanced treatment, I admit that this diabolical stuff is my favorite: http://www.arrogantbrewing.com/beer/year-round-releases/arrogant-bastard-ale.

Arg, I've probably violated about three different rules of Celestial Forum, now, counting commercial endorsements. D'oh.


Well you get points for your beer choice.

Bonus points if you know who said

"Whiskey, whiskey, what shall I ever do without my whiskey?"

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:26 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
Mittens wrote:
The definition of substance


Again why should someone who doesn't already consider the Latin Fathers as correct assume that the definition of a latin word tells us about the Godhead? Certainly the the New Testament wasn't written in Latin.

But even with the Latin you outline you fully admit that it had different senses and depending upon which Father you are talking of it's not clear they are speaking metaphysically. Further for the Trinity to work and avoid modalism one has to change what the substance means. (Thus the appropriation of certain neoplatonic conceptions along with the metaphysical innovation of rejecting its emanation model)



first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God
2. The Father is God;
3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.


God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
I meant to suggest that the devil might not have all the best beer. But to give fair and balanced treatment, I admit that this diabolical stuff is my favorite: http://www.arrogantbrewing.com/beer/year-round-releases/arrogant-bastard-ale.

Arg, I've probably violated about three different rules of Celestial Forum, now, counting commercial endorsements. D'oh.


Who knows, if Joseph Smith was right, we might get the Trappists and their beer in hell. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:39 pm 
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On another board, it was discussed and some surprisingly agreed that perhaps the HG is our Heavenly Mother. This was MD@D a while back.


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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:21 am 
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candygal wrote:
On another board, it was discussed and some surprisingly agreed that perhaps the HG is our Heavenly Mother. This was MD@D a while back.


It's an old view. Both Sophia speculation in the New Testament era and also Wisdom speculation in the Old Testament era play with their being feminine. Often they are treated as divine. This persists in the mystic tradition of Judaism such that within God there are feminine aspects of the sephirot. Of course that doesn't follow that the Holy Ghost is a woman but there's already a long tradition in the west of the Holy Ghost being feminine. The divine feminine was of course part of the tradition of other religions so when Christianity took these areas over syncretistic elements often remain. The treatment of Mary the mother of Jesus in Catholicism largely owes a lot to that for instance.


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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:54 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
Mittens wrote:
The definition of substance



Very clear substance is a Synonym for God or Godhead :lol:

Again why should someone who doesn't already consider the Latin Fathers as correct assume that the definition of a latin word tells us about the Godhead? Certainly the the New Testament wasn't written in Latin.

But even with the Latin you outline you fully admit that it had different senses and depending upon which Father you are talking of it's not clear they are speaking metaphysically. Further for the Trinity to work and avoid modalism one has to change what the substance means. (Thus the appropriation of certain neoplatonic conceptions along with the metaphysical innovation of rejecting its emanation model)



first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:20 pm 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
It does no good to say some things are one unless you can establish what is meant by that unity.

The primary problem on traditional formulations of the Trinity is in thinking of unity purely as substance. Which leads to the logical problems of the Trinity. There are of course ways to deal with this. Duns Supreme Court has my favorite approaches and even though I don't accept an Augustinian Trinity I think some of Duns Supreme Court' thoughts on substance are likely correct.

It's also important to note that prominent Mormons have accepted a substantial unity to the Godhead. Orson Pratt is the most famous with a rather odd materialist take on it. The more common view, especially in the 20th century, was far more nominalistic of course. But there's really no theological reason to assume the nominalistic views where the unity is just of mental states is correct. I'd actually argue there are compelling reasons within the Mormon tradition to be very skeptical of nominalist takes on divine unity.



Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons

The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:


The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal


The doctrine of the incarnation----- that the Son of God, the Word ( John 1:1 ) became man ( John ; Rom. 1:3 ) uniting in the single person of the Son two distinct and complete natures, diety and humanity.


The sinless of Christ---- that he lived as the perfect man to fulfill God’s plan for all humanity. ( Heb 2:6-18; 4:14, 15 )


The sacrificial death of Christ---- to atone for sins of all men ( 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:; Matt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20 )


The resurrection of Christ---- that after his death, Christ rose bodily from the grave, showing his triumph over sin and death, as the first fruit, and hence the promise, of resurrection to all who have faith in him ( 1 ; Rom 6:3-11 )


Salvation by Grace through Faith--- that justification before God, and hence salvation from punishment and life with God, are available only as a gift from God through faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:6; 3:16 Acts 4:10; John 8:24 ) pp 19-20


When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.


We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24


“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153


Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God
2. The Father is God;
3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.


All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

http://i.imgur.com/LjYn4FJ.jpg

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Last edited by Mittens on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Can you imagine what the theological implications would be if the LDS deep mystery (the potted meat vs. powdered milk) belief of Joseph Smith being the Holy Ghost was part of a single God?

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:41 pm 
God

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ClarkGoble wrote:
Mittens wrote:
The definition of substance


Again why should someone who doesn't already consider the Latin Fathers as correct assume that the definition of a latin word tells us about the Godhead? Certainly the the New Testament wasn't written in Latin.

But even with the Latin you outline you fully admit that it had different senses and depending upon which Father you are talking of it's not clear they are speaking metaphysically. Further for the Trinity to work and avoid modalism one has to change what the substance means. (Thus the appropriation of certain neoplatonic conceptions along with the metaphysical innovation of rejecting its emanation model)


The word substance however comes from Latin :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:00 pm 
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bomgeography wrote:
When Joseph had a better understanding of God and Christ visit correct doctrine was established. All of the doctrines/gods doctrines did not come about the day the church was restored back on the earth.


He saw God and Jesus Christ both face to face. How did he he not understand this completely?

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 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:00 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
bomgeography wrote:
When Joseph had a better understanding of God and Christ visit correct doctrine was established. All of the doctrines/gods doctrines did not come about the day the church was restored back on the earth.


He saw God and Jesus Christ both face to face. How did he he not understand this completely?


Joseph Smith apparently didn't understand his face to face encounter with God the father and Jesus when he penned this :


http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Lectures_on_Faith
Lectures on Faith

Lecture Five 2. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made…. They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, being in the form and likeness of man, or rather man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fulness of the Father, or the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name. He is called the Son because of the flesh…possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit that bears record of the Father and the Son. These three are one; or, in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things. Q & A 15. Do the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead? They do.

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