It is currently Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:47 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:10 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm
Posts: 1086
Location: Vancouver Washington
1 John 5:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mormons love to mention this passage as placing doctrine into a text yet Joseph Smith pre-1835 uses basically the same wording and adds One God which further agrees with the Creeds and Trinity doctrine. Why are the Mormon apologist silent on this ?

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

There is more proof the Mormon leadership is guilty of same accusations

I Nephi 20:1 originally read exactly like Is. 48:1 in the King James Bible. Now it reads, "...out of the waters of Judah or out of the waters of baptism." Apostle Mark E. Petersen said, "A direct reference to baptism was plainly deleted from Isaiah 48:1" (As Translated Correctly, p. 14). Petersen was attempting to show how the B. of M. helped correct errors in the Bible, but he picked a very poor example because it is the B. of M. that has been changed! Neither the Hebrew text of Is. 48:1 nor the original B. of M. support the present reading of I Nephi 20:1. Even as late as the 1888 edition of the B. of M., that phrase was not in the text. The Joseph Smith Translation also repeats the pre-1888 edition and The King James version


http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#changes

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:48 am 
Regional Representative

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:48 pm
Posts: 646
Church doctrine is that God the father Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are ONE in purpose being three distinct beings.

I don't see any issues


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:42 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm
Posts: 1086
Location: Vancouver Washington
bomgeography wrote:
Church doctrine is that God the father Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are ONE in purpose being three distinct beings.

I don't see any issues


pre-1835 Joseph Smith taught ONE GOD not one in purpose just like the Creeds taught.


, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God
2. The Father is God;
3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:00 pm 
Regional Representative

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:48 pm
Posts: 646
When Joseph had a better understanding of God and Christ visit correct doctrine was established. All of the doctrines/gods doctrines did not come about the day the church was restored back on the earth.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:06 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm
Posts: 1086
Location: Vancouver Washington
bomgeography wrote:
When Joseph had a better understanding of God and Christ visit correct doctrine was established. All of the doctrines/gods doctrines did not come about the day the church was restored back on the earth.


If Joseph Smith got his information from an omniscient God why would he need a better understanding ? :lol:

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:10 pm 
Regional Representative

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:48 pm
Posts: 646
What makes you think that Joseph Smith can comprehend a perfectly omniscient God.

Why did the trinity doctrine come about hundreds of years after the bible?

Your argument contradicts the trinity :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:45 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6746
bomgeography wrote:
What makes you think that Joseph Smith can comprehend a perfectly omniscient God.

Why did the trinity doctrine come about hundreds of years after the bible?

Your argument contradicts the trinity :wink:


And the Bible.
SEE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NKJV


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:41 pm 
Holy Ghost
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:49 pm
Posts: 914
i'd like to know, how many chapel Mormons know what "comma johanneum" is...

even what does mean "elohist" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohist;
and what does mean "jahwist" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahwist;

that Mormons - i am lucky enough to know some of them - could read the bible in an oneyear campaign, as did it with Book of Mormon, hyped by Gordon B. Hinckley

see:
- reading bible in one year
- or reading the Book of Mormon in one year
- or the "seminary" ***
--- nobody remembers what he/she has read/explained one week ago; not even a year ago



-----------------------
***
the seminary teacher is a common member
the audience are the same

hhmm...
Vak vezet világtalant = A blind leads a sightless
yes, it is a hungarian saying

you know, i like Attila József (see wiki!) and i am like him...
Quote:
My mother was Cumanian, my father
Half-Szekler, half-Rumanian or whole.
From my mother’s lips sweet was every morsel,
And from my father’s lips the truth was gold.

(http://www.visegradliterature.net/works ... the_Danube)

_________________
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:58 pm 
Regional Representative

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:48 pm
Posts: 646
The comma Johanneum is irrelevant to proving anything about the trinity.

But nonetheless this is what I read the Comma Johannuem does not show up in the bible till 1522.

Its considered a latin corruption that entered the Greek New testament.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:48 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
My favorite kind of thread!

Image

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:30 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 4789
Location: Firmly on this earth
Maksutov wrote:
My favorite kind of thread!

Image

Bwahahahaha! WHERE do you get your graphics?!

_________________
Science is not reliable because it provides certainty. It is reliable because it provides us with the best answers we have at present. And it is reliability we need, not certainty. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to certainty. Carlo Rovelli


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:01 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
Philo Sofee wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
My favorite kind of thread!

Image

Bwahahahaha! WHERE do you get your graphics?!


From Satan. He has all the best graphics. And music, too. And science. And art. And...

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7322
Location: On walkabout
...beer!

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:25 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
Res Ipsa wrote:
...beer!


I rest my case.

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:32 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 4789
Location: Firmly on this earth
:lol: well beer it is then....

_________________
Science is not reliable because it provides certainty. It is reliable because it provides us with the best answers we have at present. And it is reliability we need, not certainty. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to certainty. Carlo Rovelli


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:55 am 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm
Posts: 1086
Location: Vancouver Washington
bomgeography wrote:
What makes you think that Joseph Smith can comprehend a perfectly omniscient God.

Why did the trinity doctrine come about hundreds of years after the bible?

Your argument contradicts the trinity :wink:


What year was this written ?


2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:34 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6746
The LDS believe in the Godhead, not the Trinity.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:15 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm
Posts: 1086
Location: Vancouver Washington
The CCC wrote:
The LDS believe in the Godhead, not the Trinity.


Traditional Christians call it The Godhead or Trinity, Except we say ONE GOD while Mormons teach 3 gods :lol:

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:09 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:12 am
Posts: 6088
Location: Arizona
The CCC wrote:
The LDS believe in the Godhead, not the Trinity.


"Latter-day Saints believe in a trinity, but define the Godhead as consisting of three separate beings." - Link

_________________
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:37 am 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm
Posts: 1086
Location: Vancouver Washington
Brackite wrote:
The CCC wrote:
The LDS believe in the Godhead, not the Trinity.


"Latter-day Saints believe in a trinity, but define the Godhead as consisting of three separate beings." - Link


The Godhead or Trinity to a tradition Christian is three separate and distinct persons yet ONE GOD


first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God
2. The Father is God;
3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:49 pm 
Stake High Council

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 543
It does no good to say some things are one unless you can establish what is meant by that unity.

The primary problem on traditional formulations of the Trinity is in thinking of unity purely as substance. Which leads to the logical problems of the Trinity. There are of course ways to deal with this. Duns Supreme Court has my favorite approaches and even though I don't accept an Augustinian Trinity I think some of Duns Supreme Court' thoughts on substance are likely correct.

It's also important to note that prominent Mormons have accepted a substantial unity to the Godhead. Orson Pratt is the most famous with a rather odd materialist take on it. The more common view, especially in the 20th century, was far more nominalistic of course. But there's really no theological reason to assume the nominalistic views where the unity is just of mental states is correct. I'd actually argue there are compelling reasons within the Mormon tradition to be very skeptical of nominalist takes on divine unity.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group