Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Physics Guy wrote:I meant to suggest that the devil might not have all the best beer. But to give fair and balanced treatment, I admit that this diabolical stuff is my favorite: http://www.arrogantbrewing.com/beer/year-round-releases/arrogant-bastard-ale.

Arg, I've probably violated about three different rules of Celestial Forum, now, counting commercial endorsements. D'oh.


Who knows, if Joseph Smith was right, we might get the Trappists and their beer in hell. :twisted:
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_candygal
_Emeritus
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 2:38 am

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _candygal »

On another board, it was discussed and some surprisingly agreed that perhaps the HG is our Heavenly Mother. This was MD@D a while back.
_ClarkGoble
_Emeritus
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:55 pm

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _ClarkGoble »

candygal wrote:On another board, it was discussed and some surprisingly agreed that perhaps the HG is our Heavenly Mother. This was MD@D a while back.


It's an old view. Both Sophia speculation in the New Testament era and also Wisdom speculation in the Old Testament era play with their being feminine. Often they are treated as divine. This persists in the mystic tradition of Judaism such that within God there are feminine aspects of the sephirot. Of course that doesn't follow that the Holy Ghost is a woman but there's already a long tradition in the west of the Holy Ghost being feminine. The divine feminine was of course part of the tradition of other religions so when Christianity took these areas over syncretistic elements often remain. The treatment of Mary the mother of Jesus in Catholicism largely owes a lot to that for instance.
_Mittens
_Emeritus
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _Mittens »

ClarkGoble wrote:
Mittens wrote: The definition of substance



Very clear substance is a Synonym for God or Godhead :lol:

Again why should someone who doesn't already consider the Latin Fathers as correct assume that the definition of a latin word tells us about the Godhead? Certainly the the New Testament wasn't written in Latin.

But even with the Latin you outline you fully admit that it had different senses and depending upon which Father you are talking of it's not clear they are speaking metaphysically. Further for the Trinity to work and avoid modalism one has to change what the substance means. (Thus the appropriation of certain neoplatonic conceptions along with the metaphysical innovation of rejecting its emanation model)



first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Mittens
_Emeritus
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _Mittens »

ClarkGoble wrote:It does no good to say some things are one unless you can establish what is meant by that unity.

The primary problem on traditional formulations of the Trinity is in thinking of unity purely as substance. Which leads to the logical problems of the Trinity. There are of course ways to deal with this. Duns the Supreme Court has my favorite approaches and even though I don't accept an Augustinian Trinity I think some of Duns the Supreme Court' thoughts on substance are likely correct.

It's also important to note that prominent Mormons have accepted a substantial unity to the Godhead. Orson Pratt is the most famous with a rather odd materialist take on it. The more common view, especially in the 20th century, was far more nominalistic of course. But there's really no theological reason to assume the nominalistic views where the unity is just of mental states is correct. I'd actually argue there are compelling reasons within the Mormon tradition to be very skeptical of nominalist takes on divine unity.



Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons

The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:


The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal


The doctrine of the incarnation----- that the Son of God, the Word ( John 1:1 ) became man ( John ; Rom. 1:3 ) uniting in the single person of the Son two distinct and complete natures, diety and humanity.


The sinless of Christ---- that he lived as the perfect man to fulfill God’s plan for all humanity. ( Heb 2:6-18; 4:14, 15 )


The sacrificial death of Christ---- to atone for sins of all men ( 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:; Matt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20 )


The resurrection of Christ---- that after his death, Christ rose bodily from the grave, showing his triumph over sin and death, as the first fruit, and hence the promise, of resurrection to all who have faith in him ( 1 ; Rom 6:3-11 )


Salvation by Grace through Faith--- that justification before God, and hence salvation from punishment and life with God, are available only as a gift from God through faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:6; 3:16 Acts 4:10; John 8:24 ) pp 19-20


When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.


We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24


“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153


Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God
2. The Father is God;
3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.


All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

http://i.imgur.com/LjYn4FJ.jpg
Last edited by Guest on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _moksha »

Can you imagine what the theological implications would be if the LDS deep mystery (the potted meat vs. powdered milk) belief of Joseph Smith being the Holy Ghost was part of a single God?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Mittens
_Emeritus
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _Mittens »

ClarkGoble wrote:
Mittens wrote: The definition of substance


Again why should someone who doesn't already consider the Latin Fathers as correct assume that the definition of a latin word tells us about the Godhead? Certainly the the New Testament wasn't written in Latin.

But even with the Latin you outline you fully admit that it had different senses and depending upon which Father you are talking of it's not clear they are speaking metaphysically. Further for the Trinity to work and avoid modalism one has to change what the substance means. (Thus the appropriation of certain neoplatonic conceptions along with the metaphysical innovation of rejecting its emanation model)


The word substance however comes from Latin :lol:
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Maxine Waters
_Emeritus
Posts: 1085
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:29 am

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _Maxine Waters »

bomgeography wrote:When Joseph had a better understanding of God and Christ visit correct doctrine was established. All of the doctrines/gods doctrines did not come about the day the church was restored back on the earth.


He saw God and Jesus Christ both face to face. How did he he not understand this completely?
“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.
_Mittens
_Emeritus
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am

Re: Comma Johanneum and Mormon double Standard

Post by _Mittens »

Maxine Waters wrote:
bomgeography wrote:When Joseph had a better understanding of God and Christ visit correct doctrine was established. All of the doctrines/gods doctrines did not come about the day the church was restored back on the earth.


He saw God and Jesus Christ both face to face. How did he he not understand this completely?


Joseph Smith apparently didn't understand his face to face encounter with God the father and Jesus when he penned this :


http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Lectures_on_Faith
Lectures on Faith

Lecture Five 2. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made…. They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, being in the form and likeness of man, or rather man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fulness of the Father, or the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name. He is called the Son because of the flesh…possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit that bears record of the Father and the Son. These three are one; or, in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things. Q & A 15. Do the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead? They do.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Post Reply