Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

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_EdGoble
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _EdGoble »

Kishkumen wrote:Ouch. Well, this is a dark corner. I had no idea the racist aspect of Meldrum was so deliberate and substantive. I though it was more on the level of susceptible to racist interpretation than actively racist.


It's not clear that Meldrum or May share this man's past tendencies, and I don't believe that they do. I wouldn't go there if I were you. People aren't guilty of a certain political ideology or racist tendencies just by association with a certain person. I had reservations about being associated with May because of this, but May had repeatedly told me that this man had repented of his past, and that he had forgiven him. Otherwise I would have never had anything to do with May myself back in the day. There is no substantive reason for making allegations of this sort against these other people.

You may disagree with Mormonism, but you ought to be at least fair from a human standpoint.
_Maksutov
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _Maksutov »

Always Changing wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Ouch. Well, this is a dark corner. I had no idea the racist aspect of Meldrum was so deliberate and substantive. I though it was more on the level of susceptible to racist interpretation than actively racist.
The original intent of the authors of the Book of Mormon was egregiously racist. And many LDS naturally followed in that footprint. As for Meldrum, I refuse to judge. Would he be racist if someone were to point out how racist it is?


I don't think that Mormon racism has ever been of the Turner Diaries, Christian Identity hatred kind--more the patronizing, feudalistic, "white man's burden" kind and extended towards both blacks and Native Americans. To reject the achievements of preColumbian civilizations by requiring Nephites or Atlanteans or even aliens in order to retain white supremacy is still disgusting.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

Always Changing wrote:The original intent of the authors of the Book of Mormon was egregiously racist. And many LDS naturally followed in that footprint. As for Meldrum, I refuse to judge. Would he be racist if someone were to point out how racist it is?


Yes, the Book of Mormon was clearly written in a period when the concept of race was unapologetically used to explain human differences in ways that led to horrific and tragic outcomes. I tend to think that, fundamentally flawed in this way as it is, the Book of Mormon does some interesting things that strike me as more optimistic and less rigid about race. The fact that the Nephites destroy themselves out of arrogance and hatred is a sobering lesson. Here they felt they were the "white and delightsome" crew. Lot of good that did them. They destroyed themselves. Also interesting is how peoples cycle through righteousness and wickedness, all the while remaining fundamentally ethnically Lamanite and Nephite. Somehow the promise of white transformation doesn't end up amounting to very much.

But racist? Yes.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Always Changing
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _Always Changing »

Kishkumen wrote:Yes, the Book of Mormon was clearly written in a period when the concept of race was unapologetically used to explain human differences in ways that led to horrific and tragic outcomes. I tend to think that, fundamentally flawed in this way as it is, the Book of Mormon does some interesting things that strike me as more optimistic and less rigid about race. The fact that the Nephites destroy themselves out of arrogance and hatred is a sobering lesson. Here they felt they were the "white and delightsome" crew. Lot of good that did them. They destroyed themselves. Also interesting is how peoples cycle through righteousness and wickedness, all the while remaining fundamentally ethnically Lamanite and Nephite. Somehow the promise of white transformation doesn't end up amounting to very much.

But racist? Yes.
It would be interesting to do a creative re-write emphasizing those positive lessons. Perhaps even emphasizing the prophecies of the end of Mormonism.
Problems with auto-correct:
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
_Maksutov
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _Maksutov »

Kishkumen wrote:
Always Changing wrote:The original intent of the authors of the Book of Mormon was egregiously racist. And many LDS naturally followed in that footprint. As for Meldrum, I refuse to judge. Would he be racist if someone were to point out how racist it is?


Yes, the Book of Mormon was clearly written in a period when the concept of race was unapologetically used to explain human differences in ways that led to horrific and tragic outcomes. I tend to think that, fundamentally flawed in this way as it is, the Book of Mormon does some interesting things that strike me as more optimistic and less rigid about race. The fact that the Nephites destroy themselves out of arrogance and hatred is a sobering lesson. Here they felt they were the "white and delightsome" crew. Lot of good that did them. They destroyed themselves. Also interesting is how peoples cycle through righteousness and wickedness, all the while remaining fundamentally ethnically Lamanite and Nephite. Somehow the promise of white transformation doesn't end up amounting to very much.

But racist? Yes.


It's good and bad, Reverend. Mormonism teaches that the inferior races can be redeemed, so it's not as vicious as the views of Christian Identity, where blacks and Jews are "mud people" that are the hybrid offspring of demons. But it still allows for the kind of smiling, gentle bigotry that has become the hallmark of the LDS. I'm sure that many apologists can't see why the Book of Mormon is offensive to other races, any more than many wavers of the Confederate flag don't see it through the eyes of the descendants of slaves. It's the pious version of the "white man's burden".
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_SuperDell
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _SuperDell »

Did Utah have "Whites Only" water fountains and bathrooms in its past? I know it had the "Coon Inn" or something similar as a restaurant in the SLC area.

Just how much racism was there in the State?
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

Maksutov wrote:It's good and bad, Reverend. Mormonism teaches that the inferior races can be redeemed, so it's not as vicious as the views of Christian Identity, where blacks and Jews are "mud people" that are the hybrid offspring of demons. But it still allows for the kind of smiling, gentle bigotry that has become the hallmark of the LDS. I'm sure that many apologists can't see why the Book of Mormon is offensive to other races, any more than many wavers of the Confederate flag don't see it through the eyes of the descendants of slaves. It's the pious version of the "white man's burden".


It seems to me that there is more to it than that. If it were all a simple matter of who is white and delightsome and who is dark and loathsome, I would have no trouble agreeing with you 100%. The problem is that the issue of identity in the Book of Mormon is not so straightforward as all that. Are the usual interpretations that simplistic? Yes. But it seems to me that ethnicity does not matter that much in the end. Lamanites are righteous; Nephites are wicked. The white and delightsome Nephites are in fact so wicked that God allows them to annihilate themselves. It is the so-called Lamanites who survive to be gathered as Israel. The whole idea of people becoming white is silliness, and I don't know that there is consistent support for this idea in the Book of Mormon itself.

Take this passage, 1 Nephi 13:15:

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.


Nephi is commenting upon whiteness of skin, but notice how he prophetically sees that his people were "white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful" before they were slain. Well, when were they slain and why? They were slain for being wicked, for not repenting, and for not hearkening to the prophets. So where is the simple equation of skin color and righteousness there? Why did God not adjust their skin color in order to reflect their wickedness? If he could do that for the Lamanites, why did he not do it to the late Nephites?

Now, this part of the Book of Mormon was translated after the end, so Joseph Smith well knew what the end was (for a variety of reasons), so if he simply wanted to equate skin color and righteousness, why has he drawn our attention to the end of the book, where that simple relationship between skin color and righteousness utterly fails? Why does he make a point of talking about their whiteness? Why does he say that the Genitles are white and fair but then proceeds to warn that God will allow them to be destroyed by the Lamanites if they are not righteous? Does he warn that the skins of the Gentiles will become dark?

Why is it that after the Gentiles receive the Gospel, the Great and Abominable Church rises up, and yet the Gentile possessors of their bowdlerized Gospel with its Satanic Church are yet allowed to remain "white and delightsome"?

It seems to me that "white and delightsome" is more of a warning sign than it is a simplistic, racist view of blessings. The apostate Gentiles and the wicked, later Nephites are white and delightsome, and a lot of good it does them (not). In fact, I would place "white and delightsome" against "plain and precious," with the latter being what is truly valorized in the text. The Gentiles can be fair, beautiful, and white, but at the same time they lack the plain and precious truths that were removed from the Gospel. God seems less concerned about being white than he about being plain.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Maksutov
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Re: Nazi American Ties to the Book of Mormon

Post by _Maksutov »

Kishkumen wrote:
It seems to me that "white and delightsome" is more of a warning sign than it is a simplistic, racist view of blessings. The apostate Gentiles and the wicked, later Nephites are white and delightsome, and a lot of good it does them (not). In fact, I would "white and delightsome" against "plain and precious," with the latter being what is truly valorized in the text. The Gentiles can be fair, beautiful, and white, but at the same time they lack the plain and precious truths that were removed from the Gospel. God seems less concerned about being white than he about being plain.


You may be right. It might be sometimes clumsy metaphor. And so much of the tribalistic based ideology looks like racism but it may be our presentism to some degree.

I don't worry about it as a problem for the younger latter day saints--I think they can see the problems and are already moving past it. I hope that will be the pattern for LGBT issues as well.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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