Cherokee Zoramites

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_tapirrider
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:I'm just tired of talking about the central Cherokee band. It has nothing 0 to do with my research.


bomgeography wrote:According to them they have ancestors who walked on the trail of tears I have no reason not to believe them. As far as them gaining federal recognition as Cherokee tribe I don't care. You have a strange fixation on this. And as far as I'm concerned this discussion about the central Cherokee band is over with. Start your own topic about this.



David, you presented the Central Band of Cherokee to me in an attempt to support your so-called research. And they are fake. No, I will not start my own topic about them because this is about your topic. And I don't care if you are tired of talking about them. Get over it because you were the one that presented them to me in a misguided attempt to prop up your flawed "research". All I am asking for is an answer why you gave me a lead to a bogus, fraudulent group? You sure don't want to deal with this, do you? So now you say you are tired of talking about it and want me to start my own thread that you can then ignore. No, you don't get off the hook that easy with me.

At least give me a source for your claim that they had ancestors on the trail of tears. I already gave you their website, which contradicts you, leaving me with no reason to believe you on that matter.

I am humored by your claim that I have a "strange fixation" on their denial of federal recognition. David, that BIA document contains all of the evidence to prove they are not even Indians. They had an opportunity to appeal by providing further evidence and they could not do so. So I am laughing when you say that I have a "strange fixation". Is that what you think of those of us who deal with facts, real evidence and truth? And your statement that you don't care about their denial of federal recognition seems to be an admission from you that you don't care about facts, evidence or what the truth really is.

Here is the rundown from my position. The Book of Mormon is a 19th century work of fiction. It is not true and is a fraud and a hoax. In your attempts to distort history and science to prop it up you have given me a link to a known fraudulent group. That is really the only kind of "evidence" with the Book of Mormon is to use hoaxes and frauds to support that 19th century fraud. Just stick with Moroni's promise. If it isn't enough then no amount of further distortions and wild claims will make the Book of Mormon real. Your so called "research" is not helping your church when it comes to those who care about truth but it sure is amusing even though it is a bit sad.

Thank you for the entertainment David.
_Lemmie
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _Lemmie »

So I am laughing when you say that I have a "strange fixation". Is that what you think of those of us who deal with facts, real evidence and truth?

I'm liking this a lot. Mormons complain that people who disbelieve Book of Mormon stories have a strange fixation with the truth.

If the truth is not often in your wheelhouse then I guess it would seem strange when you encounter it!
_Themis
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _Themis »

bomgeography wrote:The evidence still shows a Greek influence I still think Cherokee descended from zoram
Thank you very much


Do you think a Greek group was hitch hiking and Nephi stopped to pick them up?
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_I have a question
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _I have a question »

bomgeography wrote:I believe the earth is billions of years old and that Noah flood was local not world wide.


You are an Anti-Mormon.

Not everyone throughout the modern world, however, accepts the story of Noah and the Flood. Many totally disbelieve the story, seeing it as a simple myth or fiction. Typical of some modern scholars, one author recently discounted the events of the Flood by using such terms as “implausible,” “unacceptable,” and “impossible”; he stated that believers who would hope to provide geologic or other evidence regarding the historicity of the Flood “can be given no assurance that their effort, however sustained, will be successful.” 1 Another author titled his book The Noah’s Ark Nonsense, 2 revealing his disbelief that the Flood actually took place.

Still other people accept parts of the Flood story, acknowledging that there may have been a local, charismatic preacher, such as Noah, and a localized flood that covered only a specific area of the world, such as the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers or perhaps even the whole of Mesopotamia. Yet these people do not believe in a worldwide or global flood. Both of these groups—those who totally deny the historicity of Noah and the Flood and those who accept parts of the story—are persuaded in their disbelief by the way they interpret modern science. They rely upon geological considerations and theories that postulate it would be impossible for a flood to cover earth’s highest mountains, that the geologic evidence (primarily in the fields of stratigraphy and sedimentation) does not indicate a worldwide flood occurred any time during the earth’s existence.

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Taken altogether, these statements should convince every believer in the Bible that the great Deluge was a worldwide event, 4 not a localized flood that filled only the Mesopotamian or some other region.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/the- ... l?lang=eng

Please stop promoting false doctrine.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_tapirrider
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:I believe the earth is billions of years old and that Noah flood was local not world wide.


In other posts, you have said:


"The best answer for believers is that I do not believe that human life as we know it existed beyond 4000BC years. Although I do believe that the earth is billions of years old, I believe that human life began with Adam and Eve and not evolution. So dating past 4000BC is irrelevant. This is not a scientific research paper done by a professional that I’m sure everyone has noticed. I have faith that radio carbon dating past 4000BC years is wrong – how I’m going to prove that someday I don’t know but at this point it does not matter."
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-6/


"I have read that salt water can leache the carbon-14 from archeological Objects making them appear older. Thus if the flood did happen covering the whole earth it is possible that the flood is the cause for some objects or humans bones having dates older than 4000BC."
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe- ... omment-363
_tapirrider
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:If Yates was proven false post the source.


Mr. Yates makes claims about haplogroup x that do not hold up.
https://books.google.cat/books?id=qpvJP ... &q&f=false

Sources showing that Yates is wrong about haplogroup x:

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... l_messages

Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas? A Critical Re-Evaluation
http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 0000000040

Mr. Yates made claims about the Bat Creek Stone which are not true. It is a proven hoax artifact.
https://books.google.cat/books?id=qpvJP ... &q&f=false

Sources that the Bat Creek Stone is a hoax:

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... e_messages

The Bat Creek Stone: Judeans in Tennessee?
Tennessee Anthropologist
Vol. XVI, No. 1, Spring 1991
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat1.html

The Bat Creek Fraud: A Final Statement
Tennessee Anthropologist Vol. XVIII, No. 2, Fall 1993
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat2.html

The Bat Creek Stone Revisited: A Fraud Exposed
American Antiquity Vol. 69, No. 4 (Oct., 2004), pp. 761-769
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabb ... kfraud.pdf

A recent claim is that weathering of the stone occurred over many hundreds of years while buried in the mound.
http://www.ampetrographic.com/files/BatCreekStone.pdf

But that study did not mention that Emmert had learned how to give hoax artifacts the appearance of age, before he "found" the Bat Creek Stone.

"Mr. Emmert was sent into that region to procure, if possible, some specimens of this singular class of articles and to ascertain whether they were ancient or modern. After considerable difficulty he was entirely successful in his effort. He ascertained that these articles were made from the soapstone found in that region by some persons who had learned how to give them the appearance of age. This is done by placing them, after being carved, in running water which is tinctured with iron, as most of the streams in that region are. As a proof of the correctness of his statement Mr. Emmert had the same parties who stated they had made some articles for Mr. Valentine make quite a number of similar articles for the Bureau." Twelth Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, 1890-91, page 347
https://archive.org/stream/annualreport ... 6/mode/2up

The source of the stone's inscription comes from a book published in 1870.
https://archive.org/stream/generalhisto ... 8/mode/2up

Yates made claims that the Newark Decalogue Stone is authentic. It is a known hoax.
https://books.google.cat/books?id=qpvJP ... &q&f=false

Sources that the Newark Decalogue stone is a hoax:

The Newark Holy Stones, Bradley T. Lepper, and Jeffrey B. Gill, Timeline Magazine, Volume 17, No. 3, pp 16--25 (Published by the Ohio Historical Society), 2000
http://www.ohiohistorystore.com/Timelin ... 33C45.aspx

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

Newark Holy Stone is Featured on America Unearthed
http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeo ... unearthed/

A likely source for the design of the Newark Decalouge Stone
http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeo ... uge-stone/

Conclusive proof that the Newark Decalogue Stone is a Forgery
http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeo ... e-at-that/

Letter from Dr. Frank Moore Cross to Dr. Bradley T. Lepper
http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeo ... r-1991.png


Yates promotes the Walam Olum, which is a known hoax committed by Constantine Rafinesque.
https://books.google.cat/books?id=qpvJP ... &q&f=false

Sources that the Walam Olum is a hoax:

http://archive.archaeology.org/online/f ... _olum.html

Unraveling the Walam Olum by David M. Oestreicher
Natural History, October 1996, 14-21
http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/6502

Yates was involved with DNA claims that the Central Band of Cherokee were from Hebrew ancestors so it isn't surprising that bomgeography brings in Yates and the Central Band of Cherokee in his discussions. It is sad really, that those who are taken in by hoaxes often bring in additional hoaxes in attempts to create an illusion of supporting evidence.
_Themis
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _Themis »

tapirrider wrote:
bomgeography wrote:I believe the earth is billions of years old and that Noah flood was local not world wide.


In other posts, you have said:


"The best answer for believers is that I do not believe that human life as we know it existed beyond 4000BC years. Although I do believe that the earth is billions of years old, I believe that human life began with Adam and Eve and not evolution. So dating past 4000BC is irrelevant. This is not a scientific research paper done by a professional that I’m sure everyone has noticed. I have faith that radio carbon dating past 4000BC years is wrong – how I’m going to prove that someday I don’t know but at this point it does not matter."
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-6/


"I have read that salt water can leache the carbon-14 from archeological Objects making them appear older. Thus if the flood did happen covering the whole earth it is possible that the flood is the cause for some objects or humans bones having dates older than 4000BC."
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe- ... omment-363


Experts in carbon dating are the ones who discovered all those things that can alter dating times and take them into account when dating. You can also check carbon dating with tree ring dating long before 4000BC. Two independent dating techniques in agreement is huge, but I suspect you have done little real study of any of them. You could also use carbon dating with DNA dating. :biggrin:

Your views really don't fit with the idea of an old earth.
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_Themis
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _Themis »

You claim some Greek influence. Why would this not mean some Greek group migrated here thousands of years ago lead by Zeus?
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_tapirrider
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _tapirrider »

On September 17, bomgeography posted
bomgeography wrote:Tapir it's science that states that a founding Native American Dna marker is Caucasian.

“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 9707616292
“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”
“The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry”
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America
Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1)
“Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.””
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of “Caucasian” alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)


bomgeography, I addressed this matter of your use of the word Caucasian beginning on August 1, 2016. I addressed it directly to you, David McKane.

Here it is again:

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/x2aj/

tapirrider August 1, 2016
Please stop putting that ridiculous label of Caucasian onto some of the most beautiful people in the world who need to be seen and understood for who they really are. Stop robbing American Indian’s contributions to the world by trying to claim that their ancestors were Caucasians. Their real ancestors deserve full credit, but your fantasy history doesn’t grant that to them. Its time for me to end my communication with you because quite honestly, your twists and distortions of science, archaeology and American Indian cultures makes my head hurt. If you come to a point where you want to live in the real world, shoot me an email.

David McKane August 2, 2016
Tapir
Its scientist saying that Native American Haplo group x is Caucasian you need to take that up with geneticist not me.

tapirrider August 2, 2016
David, I’m taking it up with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKB8hXYod2w

tapirrider August 4, 2016
David, your use of the word Caucasian is outdated and racist. Even worse, the context you use it in is that ancient white people in America accomplished the greatest things but were destroyed by non-Caucasians. That theme is downright racist, scientifically false and morally condemnable.

The LDS church is making efforts to water down and remove the racism of skin color. White now means pure, not skin color as explained in the LDS essays and even in official curriculum materials. But here comes Dave, parading out Caucasian and claiming that haplogroup x is a genetic marker for it, using it to identify white as a genetic distinctiveness as evidence for proof of the Book of Mormon. This garbage from Dave is sick and racist. And like all others who do this kind of thing, he resorts to the most extreme pseudo claims such as ancient giants mixing with people, use of known hoax artifacts and the concept that white is superior. There really is no place for this in the 21st century and most importantly, when addressing matters of American Indians. This wouldn’t stand for one minute if it was about Blacks, but when it comes to American Indians, one of the realities of racism against them is that things like this are still considered acceptable by the ignorant and uninformed and Dave just keeps right on doing it.

Here are the sources Dave uses that refer to Haplogroup x as Caucasian:

This article is from 1997 and mostly references older 1970s studies that use the word Caucasian, although one other in the 1990s is also referenced
mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 1-0268.pdf

Dave quotes from this one, but it does not use the word Caucasian, although some footnote sources refer to articles from the 1970s that do
The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 69p237.pdf

Dave quotes from this one, which does use the word Caucasian, dated from 1998
mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9707616292

All of the above articles using the word Caucasian are in fact in a different context that Dave’s use of it. The scientists are not claiming migrations to the Americas during timelines of the Bible or Book of Mormon, they are acknowledging the radiocarbon dating and molecular clock measurements dating back to the Pleistocene. This makes Dave’s use of it in the context of recent migrations even more racist.

It is also important to realize that Dr. Chatters identified Kennewick man as Caucosoid because of the skull shape, and he argued that Kennewick man was not ancestral to American Indians. But Dr. Chatters changed his mind after studying an even more ancient skull in Mexico, and this was before the final, conclusive DNA studies of Kennewick man that directly ties him to living American Indians.

Here is some further reading on why the use of the word Caucasian is inappropriate:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/ ... 5DHQbgrLIU
“While the older classical physical anthropology terms like “Negroid” and “Caucasoid” fell into disuse after 1960, as you’d expect, “Caucasian” went through a renaissance in the 1990s.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/sunda ... .html?_r=0

http://www.straight.com/blogra/526526/f ... -caucasian

Dave, I’m taking this up with you because society has already taken it up with scientists and it is no longer considered appropriate and is not found in credible, current publications. You are the one doing it here and I’m trying to inform and educate you on why this is wrong. Deflecting it back to older publications from scientists who no longer do this is not going to get you out of the hot seat.

______________________________________________________________________________________

David, you turned right around and repeated it to me again, attempting to justify your offensivness, within 47 days after you had been informed of my position. Considering that you have repeated this Caucasian nonsense to me even after our previous correspondence, and in the same post where you presented me with a link to whites who pretend to be Cherokee, I can only assume to worst with you. I can't say what I would really would like to say in this forum.
_moksha
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Re: Cherokee Zoramites

Post by _moksha »

I am wondering about the Greek connection to Curloms and Cumoms. While no cities explicitly bearing the name of Cumomopolis have been discovered in the Land South to date, it could well be that it has been overgrown with jungle vines and partially buried by two-toed sloths anxious to preserve ancestral memories of the Giant Ground Sloths who proved useful to the Nephites. Of course, they were known by their Greek names at that time.




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by the way, even the name Zoramite suggests a practitioner of Greek Culture.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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