Take the best leave the rest

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_spotlight
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _spotlight »

bomgeography wrote:I'm a tbm so you may think I'm brain washed but the church has blessed me in every aspect of my life from family friends and work.

I guess this was directed at me? I was a TBM myself at one point and felt the same way. But I eventually learned that there are some very basic fundamental facts that disprove LDS theological teachings.

The easiest to consider right off the bat being the geometric expansion in the number of resurrected beings being created with the passage of time. Every time a God is formed in LDS teachings they create a world and populate it with their spirit children. After some percentage falls away during the first estate the remainder attain the second estate and become resurrected. They become inseparably connected with a physical body for the rest of eternity. Those who made it to the highest degree of the celestial go on to populate their own worlds and so on.

This is an example of a geometric expansion or growth.

If you give each cycle 10,000 years from creating a world to resurrecting it with those who made it to the second estate you would, in less time than the life span of our own sun, have more resurrected beings than the number of elementary particles in the known universe. But supposedly this geometric growth has been going on indefinitely into the past.

That is not the only issue however. For simplicity consider that initially we have a universe populated with gods at maximum possible density (whatever that might be) that occupy a spherical region of the universe. As the gods increase in number the sphere grows in size and the gods on opposite sides of the sphere move apart from one another at an ever increasing rate. The rate at which the population doubles stays constant so the rate at which gods located at the ends of any diameter are moving apart increases without bound. (Each time the population doubles the radius has increased by a factor of 1.26).

LDS theology is so full of self-contradiction that it is a wonder so many can remain blind to it for as long as they do.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Amore
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _Amore »

bomgeography wrote:I'm a tbm so you may think I'm brain washed but the church has blessed me in every aspect of my life from family friends and work.


spotlight wrote:LDS theology is so full of self-contradiction that it is a wonder so many can remain blind to it for as long as they do.

It doesn't matter how illogical something may seem to you - people want to be loved - they want to feel like they belong. This is why people go along with LDS ways, and why many people on this forum go along with anti-Mormon knee-jerk responses. Most people prioritize social and financial aspects over truth. But what is truth anyway? Can you, Spotlight, say you know the truth and that everyone else is fooled? Wouldn't you then be just as those you can't stand?
_Amore
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _Amore »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

It's why so many of us pick none of it because none of it is the best.

Polarized (bi-polar) thinking. It's either 100% the best, or 100% awful - to you because you haven't yet learned to correct this common cognitive distortion - the one that is also all-or-nothing logical fallacy. I still struggle with this, but I'm learning to see myself, others, groups (including Mormonism) and life in general in more color than black or white.
_spotlight
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _spotlight »

Amore wrote:It doesn't matter how illogical something may seem to you - people want to be loved - they want to feel like they belong.


You could use this as a defense for retaining membership in the KKK as well.

This is why people go along with LDS ways, and why many people on this forum go along with anti-Mormon knee-jerk responses.


You may be projecting a bit.
Knee-jerk? It took a while to transition from being TBM to having my name removed - several years. And I fought that logic as hard as I could, but in the end logic wins. Self-contradiction is a proof. I may not know what the truth is, but I certainly know what has been disproved. That's not nearly as hard to figure out. It's a sad situation when you have to prop up an obvious fraud in order to feel loved. I would question whether any real love is to be found if that is the situation.

Most people prioritize social and financial aspects over truth. But what is truth anyway? Can you, Spotlight, say you know the truth and that everyone else is fooled?


(see previous response)

Wouldn't you then be just as those you can't stand?

There is a distinction to be made between those taken in by a fraud and the fraud itself. Love the deluded but hate the delusion. Sound at all familiar?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_kairos
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _kairos »

Maksutov wrote:Patrick Mason has some comments on the subject:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpe ... Mormonism/

Though selectivity can indeed lead to relativism and the tyranny of individual choice divorced from any sense of community obligation or responsibility, when exercised in good faith and in the context of community it becomes a gift. In his discourse on spiritual gifts Paul emphasizes that within the body of Christ it is the Holy Spirit “who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.” The diffusion of gifts and perspectives is appointed by God, who “arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” The purpose of this diversity within the body of Christ is not to create division, but paradoxically to create harmony and complementarity, “that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another” (NRSV, 1 Cor. 12:11, 18, 25).
In Christ’s cafeteria, your plate might look a little different than mine. But so long as we pay the price of admission and partake from the same buffet, there’s no reason we can’t all sit down and enjoy the feast together.


thanx -above is really good!
_Tchild
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _Tchild »

Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

Well,

I have found that "the best of the church" is found perfectly fine outside of the church. No LDS church is needed to have the "best of the church". Family, friends, community, culture, rich life experiences...these are all available on par or superior to the best of the church. So, the LDS church is just irrelevant for my life now.
_Lemmie
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _Lemmie »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

It's why so many of us pick none of it because none of it is the best.

Agreed.

That's why one part of your comment, Amore, gave me some pause.
Amore wrote:To me, the best of the church is the sense of community (even if conditional)

If a sense of community is conditional, then what is being given up in order to keep it?

You can't disagree, but if you always agree, you'll be part of the community.

You can't express an alternate opinion, but if you always voice the accepted 'opinion,' you'll be part of the community.

You can't do anything deemed inappropriate, but if you always behave appropriately, as defined by your community, you'll be part of the community.

A sense of community under those conditions is really more of an assimilation by the community. Your entire individuality is 'conditional,' as in unacceptable if it differs from the community. If you are willing to entirely give up your individuality and be assimilated, then yes, you will have a sense of community.
_Amore
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _Amore »

Good points about how cult-members are led to believe that all good comes from the church, so rejecting church is rejecting good/God.
_Amore
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _Amore »

Maksutov wrote:Patrick Mason has some comments on the subject:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpe ... Mormonism/

Though selectivity can indeed lead to relativism and the tyranny of individual choice divorced from any sense of community obligation or responsibility, when exercised in good faith and in the context of community it becomes a gift. In his discourse on spiritual gifts Paul emphasizes that within the body of Christ it is the Holy Spirit “who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.” The diffusion of gifts and perspectives is appointed by God, who “arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” The purpose of this diversity within the body of Christ is not to create division, but paradoxically to create harmony and complementarity, “that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another” (NRSV, 1 Cor. 12:11, 18, 25).
In Christ’s cafeteria, your plate might look a little different than mine. But so long as we pay the price of admission and partake from the same buffet, there’s no reason we can’t all sit down and enjoy the feast together.

I definitely “praise cafeteria Mormonism.” Really all Mormons selectively take from Mormonism. There are over 30,000 verses in the Bible and guessing about 10,000 Mormon scriptures plus numerous writings of church leaders which are quoted as if scripture. So of course, everyone is selective. The Book of Mormon is what makes Mormonism stand out among competitor$, so it is prioritized above the rest. The church’s name really ought to be the “the church of the Book of Mormon” or “the church of church leaders.”

The lack of inclusiveness in the church has bothered me for a while. Some members are great. My ex was non-Mormon & black & bore his very unorthodox but enthusiastic testimony & a few came up to him to thank him afterwards. But I know of others, like this guy with long hair and tattoos, which many avoided like the plague. With the recent statement kind of apologizing for the racial prejudice in the Book of Mormon, it seems the church is trying to please the masses, which are increasingly becoming those with darker skin. But it seems to come more from social pressure than integrity.

To bring up something more positive... locally, members of the lds church care for one another better than most. My friend who left the church but went to a Christian church with her husband, lost both her parents within a week. As an only child whose extended family was scattered internationally - she felt very alone. She reached out to her pastor and others in their church and nobody responded. Compare that to the other day, I with about 10 others helped set up a funeral lunch for 170 (bringing dishes, setting up tables/chairs/decor etc). I love how most Mormons are so quick to pitch in and get amazing things done quite efficiently.
_I have a question
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Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by _I have a question »

I'll take Ensign Peak Advisors, the land bank and leave the rest, thanks.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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